Re: 1.41 .exe size
[off-list] tracer wrote: I don't know how true that is, but I do know that it's a common first-pass executable protection for piracy. t Except that loader programs exist which will load a program, which will t unpack, after which the loader scans and can patch the unpacked program. t A good cracker will laugh about the protection as it just makes very t little difference. Oops, meant to point out that fact. Oh well. I don't particularly care for the TSR-style of cracks; much "nicer" to simply have a patched .EXE. anyhow, this is of little interest to the general Bat community, so I'll stop here. ;) -tom! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hello Fred, On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 at 09:17:57 [GMT -0500], you wrote: FW Given the relatively minor fixes/changes shown on the 1.41 change FW list, could someone explain to me why the .exe file has doubled in FW size to just over three megs? Because it's an uncompressed executable. After you install the full version, you'll note that the the_bat.exe file is also 3MB. Why RITLabs posts them as uncompressed, I don't know, maybe due to time or whatever. Leif Gregory -- TBUDL/TBBETA List Moderator ICQ 216395 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site http://www.pcwize.com TBUDL FAQ http://www.pcwize.com/thebat/faq.shtml PGP Key ID: 0x8604279A (DH/DSS) Fingerprint: 9E16 4316 FA42 5DC6 EB1D D0ED D37A 858A 8604 279A Using The Bat! 1.41 under Windows 98 4.10 Build A on a Pentium III 500 MHz notebook with 128MB. Tagline of the day: Born ugly and built to last. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
How-do-you-do, Fred Weissman posted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] making the following comments: FW Given the relatively minor fixes/changes shown on the 1.41 change list, FW could someone explain to me why the .exe file has doubled in size to just FW over three megs? Wow. I just checked after your posting. In fact, it has TREBLED from the beta5 version as that was only 1 meg, this last one is 3.04 meg. I never even noticed. Slán anois, Simon send private mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Usin' TB! v1.41 registered !-- hide from brain dead browsers Lhomme est bien insensé. Il ne saurait forger un ciron, et forge des Dieux à douzaines! (Man is quite insane. He cannot create a maggot, and he creates Gods by the dozen) MONTAIGNE 1533-1592 //-- stop hiding from brain dead browsers -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
On Saturday, March 11, 2000, Leif Gregory wrote: Because it's an uncompressed executable. After you install the full version, you'll note that the the_bat.exe file is also 3MB. thebat.exe has gone from 1.2M for 1.39 final on my system to over 3M for 1.41 final. What does this have to do with compression? -- Paula Ford The Bat! 1.41 (reg) Windows 95 4.0 Build 950 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:36:46 -0500, Paula Ford wrote: Because it's an uncompressed executable. After you install the full version, you'll note that the the_bat.exe file is also 3MB. thebat.exe has gone from 1.2M for 1.39 final on my system to over 3M for 1.41 final. What does this have to do with compression? The installed executable thebat.exe was always compressed. Even after it's installed. Each time you execute it, it's decompressed automatically and then run. Apparently this has been causing problems and this is why they've elected to decompress it. Someone had proposed that the decompression process may be the reason for hangs occurring on win9x systems when another application is launched while TB! is starting up. -- CU, Allie ... Using The Bat! v1.41 *:* Windows NT5 (Build 2195 ) --- ** The best defense is to stay out of range. ** -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hello Paula, On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 at 10:36:46 [GMT -0500], you wrote: PF thebat.exe has gone from 1.2M for 1.39 final on my system to over PF 3M for 1.41 final. What does this have to do with compression? I'm talking about compression of the executable, not compression of the download itself. These are two separate things. The the_bat.exe (after installation) is still compressed. When run, it uncompresses to the full size in RAM. 1.39 and 1.41 are 3MB when uncompressed (in RAM). Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear as to my meaning. Leif Gregory -- TBUDL/TBBETA List Moderator ICQ 216395 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site http://www.pcwize.com TBUDL FAQ http://www.pcwize.com/thebat/faq.shtml PGP Key ID: 0x8604279A (DH/DSS) Fingerprint: 9E16 4316 FA42 5DC6 EB1D D0ED D37A 858A 8604 279A Using The Bat! 1.41 under Windows 98 4.10 Build A on a Pentium III 500 MHz notebook with 128MB. Tagline of the day: When planets run around and around in circles, we say they are orbiting. When people do it, we say they are crazy. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hello Leif, On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 at 01:16:11 [GMT +0900], you wrote: LG The the_bat.exe (after installation) is still compressed. When LG run, it uncompresses to the full size in RAM. 1.39 and 1.41 are LG 3MB when uncompressed (in RAM). Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear as LG to my meaning. I hate it when I do that!! Forgot to add, version 1.41 is not compressed, so you see the size as it would be in RAM. Leif Gregory -- TBUDL/TBBETA List Moderator ICQ 216395 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site http://www.pcwize.com TBUDL FAQ http://www.pcwize.com/thebat/faq.shtml PGP Key ID: 0x8604279A (DH/DSS) Fingerprint: 9E16 4316 FA42 5DC6 EB1D D0ED D37A 858A 8604 279A Using The Bat! 1.41 under Windows 98 4.10 Build A on a Pentium III 500 MHz notebook with 128MB. Tagline of the day: It is hard to understand how a cemetery raised its burial cost and blamed it on the cost of living. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
FW Given the relatively minor fixes/changes shown on the 1.41 change FW list, could someone explain to me why the .exe file has doubled in FW size to just over three megs? Because it's an uncompressed executable. After you install the full version, you'll note that the the_bat.exe file is also 3MB. I beg to differ. The file size of thebat.exe (version 1.41 final) which I downloaded from rit's beta only section, and am currently using, is 3,091,968. Are you saying the if I downloaded the_bat.exe and ran the full install, the .exe would be one-third the size? If so, this doesn't make sense. Why have two different size executables? And furthermore, why not have the smaller one available for those of use who don't need the full install? -- Never miss a good chance to shut up. [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.phred.net/~phred -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
How-do-you-do, Dieter Hummel posted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] making the following comments: DH You're whining about 2MB 'wasted' on your hard-disk? Is it really worth DH discussing such an unimportant issue? As we are all creatures of curiosity, we generally mentally secern divergent events, objects and information, whether they be great or inconsequential. It is rather paradoxically an 'instinct' that most rational thinking humans have no control over. We were born curious. Engaging in an interrogative discussion with an audience that particularly caters for such enquiries cannot not really be regarded as 'whining'. Such curiosity displays the cognitive nature of the quaerent, and in this case the quaerent is receiving the information necessary to satisfy his natural curiosity. It is therefore rather petulant to suggest that such an issue is unimportant. Of course it is important as the question was asked and answered. It is how we share information. You may understand how files are compressed but obviously some people do not and so are pursuing answers. It is probably nothing to do with hard disk space but necessarily satisfying curiosity. I don't have a problem with that and I don't mind giving up space in my mailbox to cater for it. All the best, Slán anois, Simon send private mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Usin' TB! v1.41 registered !-- hide from brain dead browsers Lhomme est bien insensé. Il ne saurait forger un ciron, et forge des Dieux à douzaines! (Man is quite insane. He cannot create a maggot, and he creates Gods by the dozen) MONTAIGNE 1533-1592 //-- stop hiding from brain dead browsers -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hello Listmembers, On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 at 00:43:39 [GMT +] Simon wrote: As we are all creatures of curiosity, we generally mentally secern divergent events, objects and information, whether they be great or inconsequential. It is rather paradoxically an 'instinct' that most rational thinking humans have no control over. We were born curious. If it was just for curiosity - several members already explained _why_ the file was such large. Why the programmers did _not_ compress the executable _this_ time exceeds my knowledge. If it seem so important I will ask for it and post what I get back. Regards Dieter |Running TheBat! 1.41 [2E7F60DA] on | |Windows NT v4 Build 1381 Service Pack 6 | -- Registering The Bat! [German]: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=BatReg http://www.register-me.de/the_bat/register.html Support/Info [German]: http://come.to/thebat Dieter Hummel FRA/GER 65931EMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key: http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xD93DC23F -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hi Dieter, Having a bad hair day? :) Why the programmers did _not_ compress the executable _this_ time exceeds my knowledge. If it seem so important I will ask for it and post what I get back. I think Allie suggested that it's because the developers thought decompressing the executable on the fly might be causing the problem of TB (or is it everything?) freezing when opening another program before TB is fully loaded. -- Paula Ford The Bat! 1.41 (reg) Windows 95 4.0 Build 950 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hello Fred, On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 at 18:17:11 [GMT -0500], you wrote: FW I beg to differ. The file size of thebat.exe (version 1.41 final) FW which I downloaded from rit's beta only section, and am currently FW using, is 3,091,968. FW Are you saying the if I downloaded the_bat.exe and ran the full FW install, the .exe would be one-third the size? If so, this doesn't FW make sense. Why have two different size executables? And FW furthermore, why not have the smaller one available for those of FW use who don't need the full install? Oh boy... When I answered the original question in this thread, I didn't expect to have to explain in detail. Ok, first off: Version: 1.391.41 Dnld size: 1.66MB 1.58MB TB exe after install 1.22MB 3.02MB TB footprint in RAM 3.15MB 3.16MB The above was based on the 1.41 official release from the RITLabs FTP site which was 1.58MB. Now, some of the people on this list grabbed the 1.41 from the beta section which was x.xxMB. Whether this was compressed in the (ZIP/RAR) sense, I don't know. I didn't download that one. Now, almost everyone should be familiar with ZIP and/or RAR. These are compression schemes very commonly used on the Internet to minimize download times. There is another type of compression, which is aimed at conserving disk space (ZIP and RAR are for this purpose too, I know, but I'm talking after an application has been installed). I'm not a big programmer, so I'm not going to pretend that I understand exactly what happens, but most-- if not almost all --applications you install have their primary executable compressed. This conserves physical disk space. When you run the application, it uncompresses in RAM, and the rest we all know about (the application is running). RITLabs has in the past released updates where the executable was not compressed. Why? I don't know... I've installed those before too, but my point is/was that the 3MB version of 1.41 dnlded from the beta testers area was an uncompressed executable which means that this is pretty much how the file will be in RAM (don't get started on paginating...) grin If you'd like to prove this to yourself, then use a program called procdump (sorry, I don't have a URL) on TB v1.39. It'll dump out a file that is 3MB which is pretty much an image of how it is in RAM. This file is executable in its uncompressed state. Hopefully this put this issue to rest. A simple search on the Internet should provide as detailed information as you want if this subject interests you. Thanks. Leif Gregory -- TBUDL/TBBETA List Moderator ICQ 216395 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site http://www.pcwize.com TBUDL FAQ http://www.pcwize.com/thebat/faq.shtml PGP Key ID: 0x8604279A (DH/DSS) Fingerprint: 9E16 4316 FA42 5DC6 EB1D D0ED D37A 858A 8604 279A Using The Bat! 1.41 under Windows 98 4.10 Build A on a Pentium III 500 MHz notebook with 128MB. Tagline of the day: A bad case of cranial intrusion into the rectal cavity. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
FW Are you saying the if I downloaded the_bat.exe and ran the full FW install, the .exe would be one-third the size? If so, this doesn't FW make sense. Why have two different size executables? And FW furthermore, why not have the smaller one available for those of FW use who don't need the full install? Oh boy... When I answered the original question in this thread, I didn't expect to have to explain in detail. As I indicated in the original question ... a curious mind wants to know. g Ok, first off: Version: 1.391.41 Dnld size: 1.66MB 1.58MB TB exe after install 1.22MB 3.02MB TB footprint in RAM 3.15MB 3.16MB [excellent explanation deleted] Hopefully this put this issue to rest. A simple search on the Internet should provide as detailed information as you want if this subject interests you. NO MORE Seriously, Leif, this explains it quite nicely. Thanks. -- I'm looking forward to baseball season. I always sit in General Admission, and I take my Uncle Bob with me so he can save my seat, because nobody wants to sit next to a dead guy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.ne.mediaone.net/phred13 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Dieter wrote: DH 1) The decision to _not_ compress the main executable didn't harm DH anybody: download size of the beta was approx. the same size as always - DH and the same happened to the full install. Actually, to point something out... If a large program is compressed into a small image, it should load considerably faster, even considering the fact that it needs to be decompressed. A PC with a 100 MHz bus can process (ideally) approximately 3.2G of data per second, but the hard drive only delivers (at maximum, or "ideal", throughput on IDE, which is what most of us have) 66M of data per second. So, once the executable is in memory, it's 500 times faster to decompress it than it is to read the "extra" data off of disk... Anyhow, I digress... I too thought someone was complaining about the loss of 2M. I don't even complain about 2M on my firewall which has only 16M free on 400... Lief said: LG I'm not a big programmer, so I'm not going to pretend that I LG understand exactly what happens, but most-- if not almost all -- LG applications you install have their primary executable compressed. I don't know how true that is, but I do know that it's a common first-pass executable protection for piracy. That is, it's a lot harder to patch instructions into an executable when the instructions aren't really there. Compression of executables has a number of benefits, the least of which (these days) has to do with conserving disk space. That said, I've got a 100% reproducable system lock on my computers with TB!. Start TB! and Artifact from http://www.samugames.com/ (it's free, don't fret) at the same time (adjacent buttons on the quick-launch bar, or perhaps both having Ctrl-Alt launch shortcuts), and it'll lock my machines up hard at the same time. The developer of Artifact is a friend of mine, I reported it to him, and he just said "don't do that" so I don't; it sounds like a lot of different Delphi-based programs have this trouble if they try to simultaneously start. -tom! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:18:39 +0100, Dieter Hummel wrote: If it was just for curiosity - several members already explained _why_ the file was such large. Why the programmers did _not_ compress the executable _this_ time exceeds my knowledge. If it seem so important I will ask for it and post what I get back. I had posted earlier Dieter that some users were complaining that they would get system hangs when starting another application while TB! is in the process of starting as well. The fact that the executable has to be decompressed is thought to have something to do with this. As to Fred's question. If you download the full install version (1.6MB), upon installing it, thebat.exe is 3.04MB which is the same as as that which you download when you get only the executable off of Ritlab's site. You're therefore not using extra space than those who do full install OK? :) -- CU, Allie ... Using The Bat! v1.41 *:* Windows NT5 (Build 2195 ) --- ** A supercomputer is a machine, that runs an endless loop in just 2 seconds. ** -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: 1.41 .exe size
Hello Tom Plunket, On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:46:19 -0800 GMT your local time, which was Sunday, March 12, 2000, 9:46:19 AM (GMT+0700) my local time, Tom Plunket wrote: Lief said: LG I'm not a big programmer, so I'm not going to pretend that I LG understand exactly what happens, but most-- if not almost all -- LG applications you install have their primary executable compressed. I don't know how true that is, but I do know that it's a common first-pass executable protection for piracy. That is, it's a lot harder to patch instructions into an executable when the instructions aren't really there. Compression of executables has a number of benefits, the least of which (these days) has to do with conserving disk space. Except that loader programs exist which will load a program, which will unpack, after which the loader scans and can patch the unpacked program. A good cracker will laugh about the protection as it just makes very little difference. That said, I've got a 100% reproducable system lock on my computers with TB!. Start TB! and Artifact from http://www.samugames.com/ (it's free, don't fret) at the same time (adjacent buttons on the quick-launch bar, or perhaps both having Ctrl-Alt launch shortcuts), and it'll lock my machines up hard at the same time. The developer of Artifact is a friend of mine, I reported it to him, and he just said "don't do that" so I don't; it sounds like a lot of different Delphi-based programs have this trouble if they try to simultaneously start. As I managed to hang the Bat with another button in the Bat maybe its a bug in the BAT or Delphi. Question of interest here, I seem to remember that they changed versionof Delphi used. Did this bug appear since that time??? -tom! Best regards, tracer -- Using theBAT 1.41 with Windows 98 mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am using FireTalk: 321338 ICQ: on request Website: www.phuketcomputers.com Our special website hosting/mailservers are now operational -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
