Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Once IPA is there it may be easier to provide Text-to-speech automatically. 2015-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com: I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA currently :(. I don't, for example. 2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said. Best regards Bene Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, It is a Wiktionary thing :( and yes we can and yes we should already do this/ Thanks, GerardM On 3 May 2015 at 10:43, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: Once IPA is there it may be easier to provide Text-to-speech automatically. 2015-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com: I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA currently :(. I don't, for example. 2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said. Best regards Bene Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com : Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com : I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Am 02.05.2015 um 11:32 schrieb Thomas Douillard: Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete, and if there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well imagine situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example. Automatic transliteration is already implemented and used. You will notice if you set your user language to sr-el for instance (Serbian using latin alphabet). However: * Transliteration is currently only supported between a handful of language variants, like the different scripts for Serbian, and various variants of Chinese. * Transliteration (and language fallback in general) is only applied inside statements, not for editable labels, descriptions and aliases at the top of the page. It's unclear hoe language fallback should interact with editing. * Transliteration (and language fallback in general) may not work correctly in qualifiers and references at the moment. So, the general mechanism is already there, the question is just how to improve an apply it. It seems to me that we could use transliteration support for more languages, and that we should figure out a way to apply it to the main label and description shown at the top of the page. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete, and if there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well imagine situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example. 2015-05-01 11:04 GMT+02:00 Bene* benestar.wikime...@gmail.com: Hi, this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said. Best regards Bene Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said. Best regards Bene Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I'll all with you, on this, unfortunately only a few people reads IPA currently :(. I don't, for example. 2015-05-02 15:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, When the point is to express how an official name is to be pronounced, IPA is in order not a text in another script. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:04, Bene* benestar.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, this is what the monolingual text datatype is for. The labels however are multilingual and should provide users in all languages an idea how the name is said. Best regards Bene Am 01.05.2015 um 07:14 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I think it would be nice if the *official name* property could have a special treatment in the UI. Something like the way you plan to sort out ids out of the rest of the statements :) But I have no idea. It's an important things, the name the local people gives to a place or a thing, it may be on road signs for example. It's kind of the Main Name. 2015-05-02 11:54 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de: Am 02.05.2015 um 11:32 schrieb Thomas Douillard: Yes, that's what they are for, but wikidata is far from beeing complete, and if there is no label in your language, showing next to the original name a transliteration in your language could prove useful. I can very well imagine situations where it is unclear on how to say a Chinese name, for example. Putting a label in french can somewhat be a hard task, for example. Automatic transliteration is already implemented and used. You will notice if you set your user language to sr-el for instance (Serbian using latin alphabet). However: * Transliteration is currently only supported between a handful of language variants, like the different scripts for Serbian, and various variants of Chinese. * Transliteration (and language fallback in general) is only applied inside statements, not for editable labels, descriptions and aliases at the top of the page. It's unclear hoe language fallback should interact with editing. * Transliteration (and language fallback in general) may not work correctly in qualifiers and references at the moment. So, the general mechanism is already there, the question is just how to improve an apply it. It seems to me that we could use transliteration support for more languages, and that we should figure out a way to apply it to the main label and description shown at the top of the page. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
... I did not say automatically translate into my on language everybody should speak as I'm the only True One in the Universe and everybody should bow and learn and pray I'll treat them well and talk in my own language otherwise bad things will happen, I said transliterate in the main users language, the same reason we translate the UI,, the help pages, the Wikipedia articles and so on. 2015-05-01 16:40 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what? Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago, that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec in our galaxy. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said. It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea. 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what? Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago, that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec in our galaxy. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said. It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea. 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, The point is that you insist on something where I do not see at all an application or a use case. Why restrict it to the main users language. The point of Wikidata is that we do not have those. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 16:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: ... I did not say automatically translate into my on language everybody should speak as I'm the only True One in the Universe and everybody should bow and learn and pray I'll treat them well and talk in my own language otherwise bad things will happen, I said transliterate in the main users language, the same reason we translate the UI,, the help pages, the Wikipedia articles and so on. 2015-05-01 16:40 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, A name in a script that does not make sense to you is a standard to what? Do not put yourself at the centre of the galaxy... It is a few years ago, that it was proven earth did not centre the sun and the sun is only a spec in our galaxy. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 11:00, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said. It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea. 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com : Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com : I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me?
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not. What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your understanding. For this it is not relevant. When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for your item. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ... ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ... ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi You write what you do. It is just that your arguments are flawed and I do not accept them for the reasons given. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 21:17, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: You really don't read what I write or is it me who speaks so badly I can't make myself understood ? I'm beginning to wonder ... :) 2015-05-01 19:47 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not. What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your understanding. For this it is not relevant. When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for your item. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ... ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
You really don't read what I write or is it me who speaks so badly I can't make myself understood ? I'm beginning to wonder ... :) 2015-05-01 19:47 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, You rest your case Fine. You do not address the point that an official name is exactly that. It is the name as used by authorities. Typically it is what is used in registers, in passports. You do not have those for your convenience in any language. It does not matter what you can read or not. What matters is that you can accept is that it is not about you and your understanding. For this it is not relevant. When you want to make a trip to another country you look for the label for your item. Thanks, GerardM On 1 May 2015 at 19:19, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I can't add more than I already did, I think, so I'll rest my case. A part of the work in Wikidata is building the database and guessing what could be unidentified items there only is informations in a language we don't understand or an alphabet we can't read. And there is no label in our language, and we want to put some. In that case, any information is useful. Or we plan a trip in the country in question and we want to have an idea of how to say the name in the language, or ... ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
An official name in an alphabet I don't understand does not give me any useful information, not even an idea of how it is said. It may be the only information we have for sur of some item. I say it's a good idea to give the official name in the original language together with a transliteration in the user language. I don't understand how it could be a bad idea. 2015-05-01 7:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com : Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com : Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, It is still a bad idea. An official name exists only in one language. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 18:50, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: I meant add automatically the transliteration, not replace the name. This is a good candidate : we know for sure the source and the target language (the one of the user) so a good choice for transliteration method is always possible, and we don't pretend it should be the way to say orally the name in the target language. It's just a transliteration of the official name. 2015-04-30 15:14 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, It does not quality anything. It is plain wrong. Thanks, GerardM On 30 April 2015 at 15:06, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. The official name property always has the name in the original script. But we can and should have the transliteration in a qualifier. Joe On 30 Apr 2015 06:13, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, We transliterate every name from one script to the other. Transliteration the official name is exactly the one you should not transliterate.. What is left after transliteration is not official. Thanks, GerardM On 29 April 2015 at 18:54, Thomas Douillard thomas.douill...@gmail.com wrote: It's always possible to transliterate the official name https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1448property. Of course this should be done by a gadget, or we may have to find a special treatment for the ''name'' properties. 2015-04-28 23:06 GMT+02:00 Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com: I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I agree up to a point. Transliteration is not appropriate for labels for all items. There are however a few categories of items for which transliterated labels are appropriate. For example : * English labels for villages and towns * English labels for people *English labels for bands and albums I'm sure there are others that could use this too. Joe On 27 Apr 2015 18:09, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, Transliteration is exactly that. My name is Dutch, it is used written the same in English, French and German. They are languages I understand (up to a point) I know that my name is pronounced substantially in all of them. A name that is Ukrainian or Serbian could be should be transliterated differently. Thanks, GerardM On 27 April 2015 at 19:08, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I understand your point. But unfortunately Dutch, French and German are rather bad examples. There are enough languages which would localise your name, like e. g. the Baltic languages Lithuanian and Latvian. Here an example from Latvian language Wikipedia: https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhards_Šrēders (the former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder) The Dutch Gerard Meijssen would not stay Gerard Meijssen in such languages, in Lithuanian language you would likely be called Gerardas Meisenas or the like, and also labelled as such. Am 27.04.2015 um 22:32 schrieb Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, Transliteration is exactly that. My name is Dutch, it is used written the same in English, French and German. They are languages I understand (up to a point) I know that my name is pronounced substantially in all of them. A name that is Ukrainian or Serbian could be should be transliterated differently. Thanks, GerardM On 27 April 2015 at 19:08, Leon Liesener leon.liese...@wikipedia.de wrote: The problem with ISO is that it's a standard for language-independent transliteration to Latin script. Since labels on Wikidata are language-dependent, making use of ISO does not make sense really. If you use ISO for Russian names in Cyrillic script, the label you get is not in English. It's still in Russian but transliterated to Latin script. ISO thus would only fit as an alias for the Russian interface language, if at all. 2015-04-26 22:39 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hi! use ISO standards. One of the reasons is their impartiality (in the meaning that they are not related to one specific language). Wikidata labels, however, *are* related to specific language. Every label is associated with the language. -- Stas Malyshev smalys...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
On 2015-04-23 01:21, Stas Malyshev wrote: Hi! Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic . Well, scientific/ISO standards is in this case at least three different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian However the labels and aliases are in languages like it and fr, so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex. Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349's last name is Ватсон but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613's is Уотсон. And I have no idea what is the correct romanization of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300's name. This is what we commonly use at the English Wikipedia for romanization of Russian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Romanization_of_Russian It was already noted that the Russian Wikipedia uses the reverse order for names (Dostoyevsky, Fyodor Mikhaylovich), whereas there is no reason to use this order on Wikidata. The reasonable options should be either Fyodor Dostoyevsky or (less preferable to me) Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that language.. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 14:22, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-23 01:21, Stas Malyshev wrote: Hi! Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic . Well, scientific/ISO standards is in this case at least three different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian However the labels and aliases are in languages like it and fr, so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex. Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349's last name is Ватсон but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613's is Уотсон. And I have no idea what is the correct romanization of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300's name. This is what we commonly use at the English Wikipedia for romanization of Russian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Romanization_of_Russian It was already noted that the Russian Wikipedia uses the reverse order for names (Dostoyevsky, Fyodor Mikhaylovich), whereas there is no reason to use this order on Wikidata. The reasonable options should be either Fyodor Dostoyevsky or (less preferable to me) Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
When we use auto transliteration to generate English labels then I think we should follow the practice of the English Wikipedia with other transliterations demoted to aliases. Similarly auto generated German labels should follow the transliteration practices in the German wikipedia. When we use an auto transliteration bot to generate qualifier statements with transliteration of values in birth name statements (and other name statements ) then we just need a separate property for each transliteration scheme and make sure the bot uses the appropriate property for each qualifier statement. We can have lots of transliteration qualifier statements for each value (plus statements for IPA and for a pronunciation recording ). Joe On 26 Apr 2015 21:40, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
On 2015-04-26 22:26, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that language.. Thanks, GerardM This is fine with me, but using ISO is really really weird for any Russian speaker. And I would like to see any reason why a romanization chosen for English labels on Wikidata should be deliberately different from English Wikipedia. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:30, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:26, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, Let us be clear that what whatever Wikipedia does is for that Wikipedia to decide. It does not follow automatically that it must be the label for that language.. Thanks, GerardM This is fine with me, but using ISO is really really weird for any Russian speaker. And I would like to see any reason why a romanization chosen for English labels on Wikidata should be deliberately different from English Wikipedia. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hoi, A fine position statement ... but what is your argument ? WHY Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 23:15, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: When we use auto transliteration to generate English labels then I think we should follow the practice of the English Wikipedia with other transliterations demoted to aliases. Similarly auto generated German labels should follow the transliteration practices in the German wikipedia. When we use an auto transliteration bot to generate qualifier statements with transliteration of values in birth name statements (and other name statements ) then we just need a separate property for each transliteration scheme and make sure the bot uses the appropriate property for each qualifier statement. We can have lots of transliteration qualifier statements for each value (plus statements for IPA and for a pronunciation recording ). Joe On 26 Apr 2015 21:40, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, grin ISO is a reliable source; it is THE standard /grin Wikipedia is definitely not a standard by its own admission. Thanks, GerardM On 26 April 2015 at 22:37, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: On 2015-04-26 22:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Thanks, GerardM On one hand, yes. On the other hand, no reliable source uses ISO. When NYT writes about a Russian person, they do not use ISO, they use what the English Wikipedia uses or smth similar. In my passport, they do not use ISO (fortunately), why should then ISO be used on Wikidata in an entry about me? Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hi! My point is that it is not a given that we should follow any WIkipedia for anything. Also the point of romanisation of Russian is not for the benefit of Russian speakers, it is for the speakers of English. Same people may speak more than one language. And for English speakers, letters like š or č are not the most familiar either. Moreover, mismatch between Wikipedia and Wikidata would only confuse people - is Shchedrin and Ščedrin the same last name or different one? How does one look up for it? I think departing from commonly used way would just add confusion and not really help people, neither experienced nor new. -- Stas Malyshev smalys...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Thanks for your reaction, Stas. I understand what your saying, but I think it's quite arbitrary to use English transliteration. In my opinion transliteration should be unbiased and impartial, like those international (ISO) standards are. Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form? best regards, Eric. Stas Malyshev schreef op 2015-04-22 22:10: Hi! maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' 's'; Чайковский --- Čajkovskij and Щедрин --- Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these? As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would struggle with. As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew [1] Links: -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Firstly, Note name of the thread, It's about transliterating names of humans, not transliterating in general, so translation doesn't make sense at all in this case. Secondly, I can transliterate names of Chinese people to Dutch or other Latin languages too, it will work well and it will have completely separate label in that item (so an item can easily have Dutch label and English label at the same time). Thirdly ISO standard is something we can use in some cases but most of the time how common the transliteration is more important. By some standards Smith should be transliterated to اسمیث but اسمیت is more common and the latter is being used everywhere in Persian and the bot works that way. (Note that transliteration to Arabic is something completely different) (P.S. Arabic is another language I can work on it too) Fourthly: Country of citizenship of the person is important too (My bot considers this too) why? e.g. Michael in Michael Jackson is being transliterated to مایکل (maay-kel) but Michael in Michael Schumacher is میشائل (mi-shaa-el) because this name pronounces differently in different languages. Same about James Bond and James Rodriguez (first is جیمز, Jeymez and latter is خامس, Khaa-mes). Best On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:36 AM Erics wikiadres wikiza...@xs4all.nl wrote: Thanks for your reaction, Stas. I understand what your saying, but I think it's quite arbitrary to use English transliteration. In my opinion transliteration should be unbiased and impartial, like those international (ISO) standards are. Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form? best regards, Eric. Stas Malyshev schreef op 2015-04-22 22:10: Hi! maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' 's'; Чайковский --- Čajkovskij and Щедрин --- Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these? As a native Russian speaker I can say transliteration like Ščedrin would look very unusual for Russian-speaking person (assuming they have experience at all with non-cyrillic transliterations, which most internet users do). Something like Shchedrin looks more familiar and seems to be much more common. While letters like ч and щ can indeed generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, I think it is more common than diacritics, which most people I think would struggle with. As for Hebrew, there are standard transliteration rules, which look a bit weird since they are not phonetical but rather base on spelling and distinguish some letters that all but lost their phonetical distinction in modern Hebrew (such as kaf and kuf) - but they are frequently used for signs, street names, maps, etc. These rules have been recently updated but old ones still are used from time to time. See more athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Hebrew ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Am 23.04.2015 um 09:05 schrieb Erics wikiadres: Wikidata provides a possibility to enter national standards Shchedrin (English), Sjtsjedrin (Dutch), Chtchedrin (French) and Schtschedrin (German) as aliases. So why not use the ISO-standard as the main form? Because there is no main form. Wikidata has one label per language, no main label. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Am 22.04.2015 um 15:09 schrieb Erics wikiadres: Problem could be that these standardized forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' 's'; Чайковский --- Čajkovskij and Щедрин --- Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with these? Yes, easily. Wikibase supports full unicode. Well, at least for the BMP. Support for other unicode planes (say, traditional chinese) may not be perfect. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
[Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses · character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is: 艾伦·图灵 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5 which 艾伦 means Alan and 图灵 means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: ・, e.g. アラン・チューリング https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0 *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like FamilyName, GivenName e.g. Тьюринг, Алан https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD is Turing, Alan. Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator. If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbotdir=prevoffset=20150422000329target=Dexbot) it would be awesome. Thanks, Best ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
That sounds to me as very useful indeed, Amir.
I'm a newby to wikidata but as soon as I am back from my holiday (as of
5/5) I'd like to help.
I know how to transliterate Armenian, Georgian, Ukrainian and Russian to
internationally standardized (ISO-standards) forms (and to English and
maybe French and German too). Problem could be that these standardized
forms lead to diacritic characters (e.g. hacek on 'c' 's'; Чайковский
--- Čajkovskij and Щедрин --- Ščedrin). Is wikidata able to deal with
these?
best regards,
Eric van Balkum ('Eric de Muziekbibliothecaris')
(former) Music Librarian, managing authority database at www.mcomb.nl
_'Music was my first love, and it will be my last'_
Amir Ladsgroup schreef op 2015-04-22 14:48:
Hello,
I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian
and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some
modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I
checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other
languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of
transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this
is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm
*Chinese: Instead of space it uses · character (it's not dot) but order is
the same. e.g Alan Turing is: 艾伦·图灵 [2] which 艾伦 means Alan and 图灵
means Turing
*Japanese: it's the same but different separator: ・, e.g. アラン・チューリング [3]
*Russian: The separator is space character but order is like FamilyName,
GivenName e.g. Тьюринг, Алан [4] is Turing, Alan. Handling names with
more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them)
*I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same
order, space as separator.
If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in
your language. Things you can help are:
1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed.
2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I
don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me.
3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check
edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this [5]) it would be
awesome.
Thanks,
Best
___
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l [1]
Links:
--
[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
[2]
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5
[3]
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0
[4]
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD
[5]
https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbotamp;dir=prevamp;offset=20150422000329amp;target=Dexbot___
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Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
However the labels and aliases are in languages like it and fr, so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex. Doesn't each language have its own transliteration standards? It seems to me in language-specific lables rather they should be used than universal ISO. At least it would seem very strange if suddenly all de lables on Wikidata would be different from the dewiki article titles just because Wikidata follows ISO and dewiki the German standard. Kind regards, Leon ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
Hi! Careful, this is one of the most debated and dramatic style issues after citation format! Actual transliteration should clearly follow scientific/ISO standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_transliteration_of_Cyrillic . Well, scientific/ISO standards is in this case at least three different standards, and 11 standards if you include commonly used ones :) E.g. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian However the labels and aliases are in languages like it and fr, so they're supposedly translations rather than mere transliterations. This makes things more complex. Yes. I see that the bot is setting language labels for entities, so for this both language-specific transliterations and common usage can be important. Which for Russian for example can be quite crazy, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q187349's last name is Ватсон but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1187613's is Уотсон. And I have no idea what is the correct romanization of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4105300's name. -- Stas Malyshev smalys...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
I think using the order Last, First is a convention for page names in the Russian Wikipedia. I don't think having this form in Russian labels on Wikidata is necessary (or even desirable). Maybe The Other Amir can tell us more :) Am 22.04.2015 um 14:48 schrieb Amir Ladsgroup: Hello, I started bot of auto-transliterating names of humans, initially with Persian and English (as a pair) since I know both and I can debug. After some modifications, In the last check, In more than several hundreds of edits I checked, I couldn't find any errors, I want to expand this bot for other languages but before, I need opinions of people who know rules of transliterating names in these languages, I tried to realize rules and this is my result but I need someone familiar to confirm *Chinese: Instead of space it uses · character (it's not dot) but order is the same. e.g Alan Turing is:艾伦·图灵 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%89%BE%E4%BC%A6%C2%B7%E5%9B%BE%E7%81%B5 which 艾伦 means Alan and 图灵 means Turing *Japanese: it's the same but different separator: ・, e.g. アラン・チューリン グ https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0 *Russian: The separator is space character but order is like FamilyName, GivenName e.g. Тьюринг, Алан https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%8C%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD is Turing, Alan. Handling names with more than two words would be pretty complicated (I skip them) *I checked Hebrew and Greek and both are simple languages like Persian, same order, space as separator. If you can help me, it would make a great difference in number of labels in your language. Things you can help are: 1- Confirm or correct rules of these languages and add other rules if needed. 2- Suggest more languages. I thought about Sanskrit, Hindi, and Telugu but I don't know anyone who can check the rules, if you do, please help me. 3- For any language I will do an initial run just to test, if you can check edits of the bot (which is pretty easy, e.g. see this https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Dexbotdir=prevoffset=20150422000329target=Dexbot) it would be awesome. Thanks, Best ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Auto-transliteration of names of humans
On 22.04.2015 22:10, Stas Malyshev wrote: Hi! ... While letters like ч and щ can indeed generate some long combinations which are not very visually appealing, Tell me about it! -- M. Kroetzsch ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
