Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 20:32:48 -0500, J. Rutkowski wrote: There was no installer other than the handbook. There was the former Gentoo installer project [1] but it was discontinued in 2009. The source is still available [2] You have taken my statement out of context. It looks like I was saying there was no installer at all, when the original post was clearly discussing installation from the old GRP discs, which did not have an installer. -- Neil Bothwick Beware! The end is... aaarrgh! pgpZU18Q4GRUv.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
J. Rutkowski jrtk at kow.io writes: There was no installer other than the handbook. OOppssee there was I have several images:: livecd-amd64-installer-2008.0-r1.iso There was the former Gentoo installer project [1] but it was discontinued in 2009. The source is still available [2] [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Installer/Old [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.git/about/ Yes the second link look to have some/all(?) the sources. My GIT (kunf_fu) is more like Kung_pow_chicken. I doubt that archive was origially on GIT? Anyway could somebody post the steps to download/replicate the entire rep0, say into a dir (/usr/local/portage/app-install/) Just to make sure I dont screw things up a bit. I also have many old (iso) images I found squirrelled away on my systems. I do not know about these images, but they seem to be OK? http://www.filewatcher.com/m/livecd-i686-installer-2008.0-r1.iso.721944576-0.html Also, if you read muffblaster's pages, another dev was working on the installer as recent at june 2015, in bash. He announced as the other dev stopped working on the installer. J. Rutkowski THANKS! James
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 19:41:27 -0400 Rich Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, I just noticed that net-misc/netifrc installs two systemd service files, which puzzled me. Is this in preparation for virtualizing openrc?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 1:05 PM, walt w41...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 19:41:27 -0400 Rich Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, I just noticed that net-misc/netifrc installs two systemd service files, which puzzled me. Is this in preparation for virtualizing openrc? I doubt there is any relationship with that. I imagine it is so that you can still use netifrc to manage your interfaces under systemd. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, Aug 07, 2015 at 07:41:27PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote: So, I don't know if that makes you more or less worried, but nothing has really changed in the last year on the systemd front. The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, removing it may or may not happen, and probably isn't all that important, though I'd argue that people running chroots or containers might not want an init implementation inside.) -- Rich The virtual already exists (virtual/service-manager). I personally have openrc and netifrc masked and uninstalled on my machines due to my Ivory Tower purist nature. Alec
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 08.08.2015 um 19:05 schrieb walt: I just noticed that net-misc/netifrc installs two systemd service files, which puzzled me. Is this in preparation for virtualizing openrc? This is to provide systemd users with the corresponding service files like OpenRC users get the necessary init scripts. Both are installed by netifrc and other packages. That's why I set: INSTALL_MASK=/lib/systemd /lib32/systemd /lib64/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib32/systemd /usr/lib64/systemd /etc/systemd I don't use systemd, so I don't need and want those files. That said, I don't mind if systemd users get their service files like OpenRC users get their init scripts, but I don't let portage install the systemd related files on my system. I think this should actually be handled by USE=-systemd, and not by INSTALL_MASK. On the other hand maybe there should be a USE flag openrc which handles the installation of init scripts and OpenRC related stuff for people who want to use systemd instead of OpenRC.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: I think this should actually be handled by USE=-systemd, and not by INSTALL_MASK. This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 08.08.2015 um 21:30 schrieb Rich Freeman: This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. And what's the difference if I have to rebuild half my system because of a USE flag or because of an INSTALL_MASK? The USE flag has the advantage that the necessary packages are automatically re-emerged by emerge -uDN @world if I would change my mind later.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am 08.08.2015 um 21:30 schrieb Rich Freeman: This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. And what's the difference if I have to rebuild half my system because of a USE flag or because of an INSTALL_MASK? It is recommended that users not set an INSTALL_MASK, so you won't have to rebuild anything if you don't do that. If you care that much about inodes I'd probably get rid of /usr/portage before /usr/lib/systemd. :) On the other hand, setting USE=systemd when you don't intend to use systemd is going to be more invasive in general for the packages that use that flag. So, you probably wouldn't want to do that. I'm sure there were about 85 posts on the lists taking your side when this was debated before. I'd suggest looking up the threads (about two years ago I think) rather than recreating them. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On 08/08/2015 22:02, Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am 08.08.2015 um 21:30 schrieb Rich Freeman: This was the subject of extensive discussion and a council decision. The rationale for not configuring the installing of small files via a USE flag is that it would greatly increase the number of packages that would depend on that flag, and then when a user swtiches their configuration they're rebuilding half their system just for the sake of a few dozen single-inode files. If people want to set install masks they can. However, this will come at the cost of having to rebuild half your system later if you change your mind. And what's the difference if I have to rebuild half my system because of a USE flag or because of an INSTALL_MASK? It is recommended that users not set an INSTALL_MASK, so you won't have to rebuild anything if you don't do that. If you care that much about inodes I'd probably get rid of /usr/portage before /usr/lib/systemd. :) On the other hand, setting USE=systemd when you don't intend to use systemd is going to be more invasive in general for the packages that use that flag. So, you probably wouldn't want to do that. I'm sure there were about 85 posts on the lists taking your side when this was debated before. I'd suggest looking up the threads (about two years ago I think) rather than recreating them. Two years? Was it that long ago? Feels like yesterday. I recall the discussion well, and it was not pleasant. The only real voice of sanity throughout was the final statement by the Council, who very wisely shut up right until the end when it was obvious a definitive decision was needed. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Alan McKinnon wrote: On 08/08/2015 22:02, Rich Freeman wrote: It is recommended that users not set an INSTALL_MASK, so you won't have to rebuild anything if you don't do that. If you care that much about inodes I'd probably get rid of /usr/portage before /usr/lib/systemd. :) On the other hand, setting USE=systemd when you don't intend to use systemd is going to be more invasive in general for the packages that use that flag. So, you probably wouldn't want to do that. I'm sure there were about 85 posts on the lists taking your side when this was debated before. I'd suggest looking up the threads (about two years ago I think) rather than recreating them. Two years? Was it that long ago? Feels like yesterday. I recall the discussion well, and it was not pleasant. The only real voice of sanity throughout was the final statement by the Council, who very wisely shut up right until the end when it was obvious a definitive decision was needed. I think I found it. The thread's subject line appears to be: Making systemd more accessible to normal users The date is about May 2013. At least that is the only thread I can find here locally. My archives go back to around June 2009. I searched for both phrases INSTALL_MASK and USE=systemd. If someone wants to go dig on Gmane or something, at least you know the subject line to search for and a somewhat good time frame. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: I don't need to be worried, that this will happen with Gentoo either anytime soon? What? That we'll take a vote that some anti-systemd folks won't like? It has already happened - package maintainers aren't permitted to revert additions of systemd units, or openrc scripts, or whatever runit/upstart/etc uses to their packages. Developers threatened to quit over that one, but in the end everybody probably realized that distros would be chaos if every package maintainer could dictate what selection of other packages were available in the repository, and I doubt we lost anybody in the end. Gentoo is about choice. As long as people write openrc scripts and maintain openrc, you'll be able to use it. So, I don't know if that makes you more or less worried, but nothing has really changed in the last year on the systemd front. The next big change is likely to be virtualizing openrc so that it can be uninstalled, and possibly not including it in the stage3, but that hasn't really even been seriously discussed. (Virtualizing it seems almost certain to happen (IMHO) once the blockers are fixed, removing it may or may not happen, and probably isn't all that important, though I'd argue that people running chroots or containers might not want an init implementation inside.) -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 14:51:24 + (UTC), James` wrote: That was it, I couldn't remember the name. H (GRP option), Can anyone dig out a link to that install medium? I'm unable to find it. I have lots of old i(3/4/5/6_86 gear I can revisit such old installs:: and Sven has archived many old portage trees, if I can find that link. It might just be fun to do one of those old installs and an old installer. There was no installer other than the handbook. My current (active) oldest install is vintage 2007/2008... I do not upgrade it, I keep it around for nostalgic reasons That one was around 2005, maybe even 2004. Curiously, is that the same installation semantic that Pentoo currently uses with it's pentoo installer? [1] (ZeroChaos) No idea, not having installed Pentoo, but it was no different to a standard stage 3 install except you set PKGDIR to the DVD and emerged everything with the -b option. It was a fast way of getting a working system, albeit one using default choices for everything. -- Neil Bothwick WinErr 007: System price error - Inadequate money spent on hardware pgpIdC_aK2H3M.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
There was no installer other than the handbook. There was the former Gentoo installer project [1] but it was discontinued in 2009. The source is still available [2] [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Installer/Old [2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/gli.git/about/ J. Rutkowski
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Mick michaelkintzios at gmail.com writes: http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/GRP Interestingly, I found this link:: http://netlibrary.net/articles/Gentoo_Reference_Platform Not sure if the gentoo Attic contains such images. Hmm ... this cvs is empty: yep. https://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-src/grp/ I might have some old cd's laying around; but they will not contain the (catalyst) source codes use to stitch that old installer together will they? I'd be curious as for many of my embedded systems projects a vintage installer for embedded gentoo just might be the easiest pathway forward. Usually you can find old codes, but I'm not having any success. As an old fart, I like looking back at old codes ymmv.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 08.08.2015 um 00:28 schrieb Rich Freeman: Udev installs into such a path, and currently does not depend on systemd (in fact, they block each other). They block each other because udev is part of systemd. So if you install systemd you already have udev and don't need the separate udev package. Regarding the separate udev package, at least regarding eudev I would consider this a bug, because those systemd directories are systemd specific and don't belong to the FHS. If Poettering wants to break Unix, Linux and POSIX standards, it's up to him. Packages that don't belong to Poettering's software are supposed to follow those standards and do it so far. But remember, udev is part of systemd and announced to break on non-systemd systems. So udev is not a valid example here. Obviously you don't use udev, but in general as more stuff ends up in systemd you'll probably find more important stuff with systemd in the filename. Why would it? This again would be a reason for a bug report. Or do you consider every important stuff to be part of systemd? Do you really believe that there will be no other important stuff than systemd resp. that systemd will be the only init system or system managing system? Question again: That sounds exactly like those Poetterix fanboys, particularly when they forced systemd on every user of certain distros whether they wanted it or not. I don't need to be worried, that this will happen with Gentoo either anytime soon? I'd suggest taking the time to understand what it is before you decide that you don't want it (speaking generally, I'm not suggesting that you didn't know what you're doing when you switched to eudev). Heck, even gummiboot is being merged into systemd. Bad example again. Gummiboot was originally developed by Kay Sievers, one of Poettering's fanboys and co-developer of systemd. So a no-go anyway, and no surprise that it got merged into systemd.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: If packages that don't need systemd as a hard dependency or are installed with USE=-systemd write anything which is important for them or could break them even without systemd into one of those systemd directories which I have in my INSTALL_MASK, this would be definitely a bug, either up- or downstream. Udev installs into such a path, and currently does not depend on systemd (in fact, they block each other). Obviously you don't use udev, but in general as more stuff ends up in systemd you'll probably find more important stuff with systemd in the filename. I'd suggest taking the time to understand what it is before you decide that you don't want it (speaking generally, I'm not suggesting that you didn't know what you're doing when you switched to eudev). Heck, even gummiboot is being merged into systemd. I don't think it is productive to go back and forth on the rest of this stuff. If folks take your advice and run into problems, they can always ask you for help. One of the wonderful things about this mailing list is that a new person can ask a problem and get 12 different answers with absolutely nothing distinguishing between somebody who started using Gentoo the week before and somebody who has been using it for ten years. :) (Fun piece of Gentoo trivia. Most Gentoo-derived systems don't run either openrc or systemd - they run upstart, despite it not even being in the main Gentoo repository. Go figure...) Out of interest: Which ones? That would be the #1 selling pre-installed linux desktop distro: ChromeOS. Most Linux users don't realize that there are far more laptops sold with software installed using emerge than with apt-get. You probably won't find that tidbit on distrowatch either. :) CoreOS is also a Gentoo-derived distro, being based on ChromiumOS. It should be noted that in their end state I don't think either is shipped with the portage package manager actually installed. Their master images are built using it, however. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 17:35:38 -0700, walt wrote: It varies, but it can more than halve the time taken. Well worth the minute or two it took to set it up to happen automatically. You appear to be building claws-mail from git (as do I), which seems in theory a good use of ccache. Am I understanding this correctly? I've never used ccache before, but with your helpful config info I'm about to try it. Yes I have an ebuild that uses git snapshots and a cron script that copies it to the latest version each morning. I set it up years ago, when Claws was undergoing much more rapid development (that's not a criticism of the current development, it's just that is is more mature now). That's a good point, I'll enable it and see how the build times compare. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. pgpACxO4Wz_K6.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Neil Bothwick neil at digimed.co.uk writes: That's what Gentoo did years ago. You could download a DVD with prebuilt binary packages. It meant you could follow the handbook, but without changing use flags from the default profiles for that DVD, and get a running system in no time. Wasn't that the GRP option? That was it, I couldn't remember the name. H (GRP option), Can anyone dig out a link to that install medium? I'm unable to find it. I have lots of old i(3/4/5/6_86 gear I can revisit such old installs:: and Sven has archived many old portage trees, if I can find that link. It might just be fun to do one of those old installs and an old installer. My current (active) oldest install is vintage 2007/2008... I do not upgrade it, I keep it around for nostalgic reasons Curiously, is that the same installation semantic that Pentoo currently uses with it's pentoo installer? [1] (ZeroChaos) James [1] https://code.google.com/p/pentoo/wiki/PentooInstaller
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Friday 07 Aug 2015 15:51:24 James` wrote: Neil Bothwick neil at digimed.co.uk writes: That's what Gentoo did years ago. You could download a DVD with prebuilt binary packages. It meant you could follow the handbook, but without changing use flags from the default profiles for that DVD, and get a running system in no time. Wasn't that the GRP option? That was it, I couldn't remember the name. H (GRP option), Can anyone dig out a link to that install medium? I'm unable to find it. I have lots of old i(3/4/5/6_86 gear I can revisit such old installs:: and Sven has archived many old portage trees, if I can find that link. It might just be fun to do one of those old installs and an old installer. My current (active) oldest install is vintage 2007/2008... I do not upgrade it, I keep it around for nostalgic reasons I think, but could be out by a year or two, that it was c. 2006: http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/GRP Not sure if the gentoo Attic contains such images. Curiously, is that the same installation semantic that Pentoo currently uses with it's pentoo installer? [1] (ZeroChaos) James [1] https://code.google.com/p/pentoo/wiki/PentooInstaller -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Friday 07 Aug 2015 19:32:19 Mick wrote: On Friday 07 Aug 2015 15:51:24 James` wrote: Neil Bothwick neil at digimed.co.uk writes: That's what Gentoo did years ago. You could download a DVD with prebuilt binary packages. It meant you could follow the handbook, but without changing use flags from the default profiles for that DVD, and get a running system in no time. Wasn't that the GRP option? That was it, I couldn't remember the name. H (GRP option), Can anyone dig out a link to that install medium? I'm unable to find it. I have lots of old i(3/4/5/6_86 gear I can revisit such old installs:: and Sven has archived many old portage trees, if I can find that link. It might just be fun to do one of those old installs and an old installer. My current (active) oldest install is vintage 2007/2008... I do not upgrade it, I keep it around for nostalgic reasons I think, but could be out by a year or two, that it was c. 2006: http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/GRP Not sure if the gentoo Attic contains such images. Hmm ... this cvs is empty: https://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-src/grp/ -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 07.08.2015 um 00:10 schrieb Rich Freeman: Like I said - if you want to go this route be prepared to tweak half your system to keep it working. Why would I need to tweak half my system? That sounds exactly like those Poetterix fanboys, particularly when they forced systemd on every user of certain distros whether they wanted it or not. I don't need to be worried, that this will happen with Gentoo either anytime soon? Replacing udev with eudev is certainly possible, but probably not something I'd recommend for somebody trying out Gentoo for the first time. I would highly recommend it, even for first time users. Of course not if they want to use systemd. Most of the eudev developers would probably not recommend setting install masks and setting USE=-systemd either. I doubt that, particularly the USE=-systemd part. As I already mentioned, USE=-systemd only affects ebuilds which have optional systemd related features and/or dependencies. Ebuilds which have hard systemd dependencies ignore USE=-systemd. That has nothing to do with eudev or anything else. So if you don't want to have a systemd-free system you can safely or even should add USE=-systemd to your make.conf. If that leads to a problem then it is a bug, of course except if you want to use systemd and set USE=-systemd anyway. If packages that don't need systemd as a hard dependency or are installed with USE=-systemd write anything which is important for them or could break them even without systemd into one of those systemd directories which I have in my INSTALL_MASK, this would be definitely a bug, either up- or downstream. And you're using udev all the same - there isn't much that was in udev before the systemd merge which isn't in eudev today. It seems a bit odd to object to a package on the sole basis of what source repository its maintainers are using. But, whatever floats your boat. I don't think this is odd, because eudev is generally not maintained by Poettering and his fanboys. And the goal for eudev is to have it completely free of systemd dependencies which is not the case for udev. In contrast the udev maintainers already announced that udev will soon break on systems without systemd. So I would still highly recommend switching to eudev which btw. works flawlessly. The switch from udev to eudev went totally smooth, too. If a package declares a dependency against a package that installs something in /usr/lib/systemd, and it breaks because you masked that directory, then your bug is probably going to be marked invalid. You've written about a hard systemd dependency. In such a case portage will automatically pull systemd into your system no matter if you have set USE=-systemd or not. So if someone wouldn't want to install systemd he will be warned by this and most likely won't install that particular package. Of course I had to remove my INSTALL_MASK if I would want this particular package anyway. But I wouldn't want that package. (Fun piece of Gentoo trivia. Most Gentoo-derived systems don't run either openrc or systemd - they run upstart, despite it not even being in the main Gentoo repository. Go figure...) Out of interest: Which ones?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 07.08.2015 um 21:46 schrieb Heiko Baums: That has nothing to do with eudev or anything else. So if you don't want to have a systemd-free system Typo: Should obviously be without the don't.
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon at gmail.com writes: On 06/08/2015 11:13, Felix Miata wrote: Gentoo is not supposed to be easy, but if you'd just followed the handbook you would have got what you wanted. Choosing non-defaults breaks the flow, especially when a branch explanation ends before an answer emerges. It probably would have been easy if only the first 3 or 4 Distrowatch columns existed and it had an empty systemd row. I think the Handbook is getting better and better. However the systemd-openrc choice is something that needs to be explained early in the handbook from a neutral prospective. Let's face it, lots of folks become interested in Gentoo, often when they hear that you do not have to run systemd. I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate that choice *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom:: that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho. Forget everything Distrowatch says about Gentoo. It is written by Distrowatch people trying to fit Gentoo into the Distrowatch mould, and it does not work. Distrowatch is a fact of life. On the gentoo home page, maybe WE need to explain this concept and articulate the wisdom and peace that gentoo imparts on it's community:: albeit at the price/cost of investing time learning about linux and particularly gentoo. WE owe the larger linux community, clearly explained concepts on the homepage, imho. Some folks complain about all the config choices that have to be made when setting up a Gentoo system initially. Well, these folks entirely miss the whole point of Gentoo - it is highly configurable, which means choices. These choices have to be made and indicated at some point, at the point to do that is right at the beginning, right in the middle of the install process. It's how the distro works. Agreed. But we can (maybe eventually) offer more frequent live versions of gentoo, in a canned dvd(w/persistence) so that folks can test-drive gentoo, add a few packages and get comfortable before undertaking that long and winding manual install road? All it would take is spinning out more livedvd/sticks imho. Or, We could also point them to existing gentoo derivatives for a test-drive:: pentoo, lilblue, sabayon, calculate etc etc first, if we are not going to roll more frequent live* images? Maybe GRS (blueness) offers a bit more of a quickie? I get the feeling from reading your posts that you are trying to understand Gentoo by comparing it to a binary distro to find common ground. That won't help, you run out of similarities very quickly. Gentoo has to be understood on it's own terms, not in terms of how it compares to say Fedora Kids always compare new foods to chocolate; that's just how it is. Delineating why gentoo is superior (and it is when you are mature enough) is what we do not do formally. Somebody (like Alan or Neil) really should write up article on this, put it on the home page and call it 'The Wisdom and Wonders of Gentoo' or some such marketing hyperbole. If for no other reason, so we do not have to continue with this 'educational intro to gentoo' on gentoo-user. Of coarse the 'old farts' are right about what they spew here on the list. But, the simple, fundamental question is this:: do we really want to be a collective of intellectual smoots, or do we want a kinder and gentler reception for noobs to dabble in? Personally, I do not play basketball with folks my age:: it's a bummer to watch them struggle. I do play full-court basketball, with college age kids and it is the most wonderful joy a former athlete can have. That glistening of the youthful minds is great company for old farts. You guys really want to continue to frustrate these kids? Most of them have already had the 'shit kick out of them' intellectually in a globalize world; why do you think they seek refuge in gentoo? Let's jazz up our gentoo-sex-appeal on the home page so we ALL look good. Moose anyone? Just a few random thoughts:: no intentions of scratching loose any dandruff. peace, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:17 PM, James` wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Jc García jyo.garcia at gmail.com writes: I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate that choice *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom:: that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho. OpenRC is there on the stage3, systemd isn't, if you don't think about systemd you get an OpenRC installation, I think it would confuse more people to talk about choosing init system(especially noobs) right at the beginning of the handbook. I think during the installation (before the reboot) lots of software can be installed or removed. So that means that systemd and companion packages are part of the installation. And systemd is a choice during the profile selection part of an installation. ++ I think the systemd install instructions really need to be folded into the main handbook. Otherwise you end up doing the two in parallel. I just went through the btrfs raid1 install both with openrc and systemd and found all of three lines where anything is done differently (though I didn't get into setting up network, logging, enabling services, etc). Just picking a profile is really 90% of it. Long-term there is discussion of removing sysvinit+openrc from the stage3 and just making installing it a step like installing your favorite logger or cron or MTA implementation. There is really only one blocker I'm aware of for doing this - which is fixing shell scripts which reference a deprecated functions.sh that was part of openrc previously (it has nothing to do with openrc functionally). Installing sysvinit and openrc would be really simple and fast (certainly faster than systemd), and it could of course be pulled in by a profile just as systemd is. Or maybe it stays in the stage3 but is pulled in as a default for a virtual, so that it gets depcleaned after installing systemd. There wouldn't be any blockers either way, so anybody who wants both installed could still do so. Gentoo is about choice, and we try to make most of our decisions pragmatically. Defaults are just defaults, and where it is reasonable we try not to even have defaults. In fact, if you're running a chroot or container install, you might not want any init implementation installed (though both systemd and openrc are being designed to run inside containers if desired). -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 06.08.2015 um 22:01 schrieb Rich Freeman: You're defining really systemd-free in the same sense that the FSF defines a really free distro (they think Debian FOSS-only isn't good enough). Sticking with the base profile should get you an experience about the same as what you'd have gotten 4 years ago before anybody heard of systemd, and going as far as you suggestion may cause problems if you use software that has been subsequently merged into systemd, but which is still available standalone (think udev/etc). But, to each their own, that is the Gentoo way. Just don't file any bugs if something breaks purely as a result of doing the steps above. You're totally wrong. USE=-systemd tells portage not to build and install optional systemd features, dependencies etc. Ebuilds that need systemd as a hard dependency like GNOME are not affected by this. The INSTALL_MASK just tells portage to not install systemd related files which are not necessary and not used on none-systemd systems like those unit files or whatever they are called which are unfortunately installed by several ebuilds along with the OpenRC init scripts. So, yes, I will file any bugs if something breaks, because systemd is supposed to be optional on Gentoo. And, no, I won't install any package which is merged into systemd. As you mentioned udev, what do you need udev for if you don't use systemd? Just install eudev. Works perfectly without any systemd dependency. And, yes, I don't like systemd - in fact I hate it - because it's just broken by design. But discussing with Poettering and his fanboys is pointless since they aren't able to take criticism. There are a lot of other reasons, too. And I really don't want to have any part of this Poetterix crap like systemd, pulseaudio etc. on my system. So I take it as a compliment when you compare my definition of really systemd-free with the FSF's definition of a really free distro.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: And, no, I won't install any package which is merged into systemd. As you mentioned udev, what do you need udev for if you don't use systemd? Just install eudev. Works perfectly without any systemd dependency. Like I said - if you want to go this route be prepared to tweak half your system to keep it working. Replacing udev with eudev is certainly possible, but probably not something I'd recommend for somebody trying out Gentoo for the first time. Most of the eudev developers would probably not recommend setting install masks and setting USE=-systemd either. And you're using udev all the same - there isn't much that was in udev before the systemd merge which isn't in eudev today. It seems a bit odd to object to a package on the sole basis of what source repository its maintainers are using. But, whatever floats your boat. So, yes, I will file any bugs if something breaks, because systemd is supposed to be optional on Gentoo. If a package declares a dependency against a package that installs something in /usr/lib/systemd, and it breaks because you masked that directory, then your bug is probably going to be marked invalid. But, if you enjoy making work for the bug wranglers I guess you can do your part to ensure that the position remains understaffed. I'm not talking about incorrect dependencies not aligned with upstream/etc. Those are often valid bugs, as are bugs asking for fixes to openrc scripts or systemd units even though openrc and systemd are optional on Gentoo. Maintainers aren't required to commit openrc scripts or systemd units, but they're certainly encouraged to do so when somebody provides them for an init system they use (or runit, or upstart, or whatever). (Fun piece of Gentoo trivia. Most Gentoo-derived systems don't run either openrc or systemd - they run upstart, despite it not even being in the main Gentoo repository. Go figure...) -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On 06/08/2015 18:34, James wrote: Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon at gmail.com writes: On 06/08/2015 11:13, Felix Miata wrote: Gentoo is not supposed to be easy, but if you'd just followed the handbook you would have got what you wanted. Choosing non-defaults breaks the flow, especially when a branch explanation ends before an answer emerges. It probably would have been easy if only the first 3 or 4 Distrowatch columns existed and it had an empty systemd row. I think the Handbook is getting better and better. However the systemd-openrc choice is something that needs to be explained early in the handbook from a neutral prospective. Let's face it, lots of folks become interested in Gentoo, often when they hear that you do not have to run systemd. I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate that choice *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom:: that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho. systemd-openrc is just one more choice the user has to make, except that this one is interpreted as involving PID 1, in the minds of some this seems to invoke large amounts of $MAGIC. Where does it end? Shall we detail glibc/uclibc/musl? Firefox/Iceweasel? openoffice/libreoffice? udev/everything else? What you say above seems to my mind to raise systemd vs openrc to an artifical level of importance that it does not deserve. It's not like you can't emerge -C the one and emerge the other Forget everything Distrowatch says about Gentoo. It is written by Distrowatch people trying to fit Gentoo into the Distrowatch mould, and it does not work. Distrowatch is a fact of life. On the gentoo home page, maybe WE need to explain this concept and articulate the wisdom and peace that gentoo imparts on it's community:: albeit at the price/cost of investing time learning about linux and particularly gentoo. WE owe the larger linux community, clearly explained concepts on the homepage, imho. WE will not ever do anything. Who is this mythical we? Distrowatch's page on Gentoo will only change is someone gets in touch and has the change made. There is no we. Why don't you do it? Some folks complain about all the config choices that have to be made when setting up a Gentoo system initially. Well, these folks entirely miss the whole point of Gentoo - it is highly configurable, which means choices. These choices have to be made and indicated at some point, at the point to do that is right at the beginning, right in the middle of the install process. It's how the distro works. Agreed. But we can (maybe eventually) offer more frequent live versions of gentoo, in a canned dvd(w/persistence) so that folks can test-drive gentoo, add a few packages and get comfortable before undertaking that long and winding manual install road? All it would take is spinning out more livedvd/sticks imho. Or, We could also point them to existing gentoo derivatives for a test-drive:: pentoo, lilblue, sabayon, calculate etc etc first, if we are not going to roll more frequent live* images? Maybe GRS (blueness) offers a bit more of a quickie? There's that we again. If you want these things, set up an automated build system that produces and publishes them. If you stuff is any good and it gets traction, infra might be willing to take it onboard as something official I get the feeling from reading your posts that you are trying to understand Gentoo by comparing it to a binary distro to find common ground. That won't help, you run out of similarities very quickly. Gentoo has to be understood on it's own terms, not in terms of how it compares to say Fedora Kids always compare new foods to chocolate; that's just how it is. Delineating why gentoo is superior (and it is when you are mature enough) is what we do not do formally. Somebody (like Alan or Neil) really should write up article on this, put it on the home page and call it 'The Wisdom and Wonders of Gentoo' or some such marketing hyperbole. If for no other reason, so we do not have to continue with this 'educational intro to gentoo' on gentoo-user. Now that is something I could do, it's close to my heart :-) Neil might even be willing to edit out my more senior rambling moments :-) Of coarse the 'old farts' are right about what they spew here on the list. But, the simple, fundamental question is this:: do we really want to be a collective of intellectual smoots, or do we want a kinder and gentler reception for noobs to dabble in? Personally, I do not play basketball with folks my age:: it's a bummer to watch them struggle. I do play full-court basketball, with college age kids and it is the most wonderful joy a former athlete can have. That glistening of the youthful minds is great company for old farts. You guys really want to continue to frustrate these kids? Most of them have already had the 'shit kick out of them' intellectually in a globalize world; why
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am 06.08.2015 um 18:59 schrieb Jc García: OpenRC is there on the stage3, systemd isn't, if you don't think about systemd you get an OpenRC installation, I think it would confuse more people to talk about choosing init system(especially noobs) right at the beginning of the handbook. To get a really systemd-free system you unfortunately need to do two additional steps: 1. Add USE=-systemd to your /etc/portage/make.conf 2. Add INSTALL_MASK=/lib/systemd /lib32/systemd /lib64/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib32/systemd /usr/lib64/systemd /etc/systemd to your /etc/portage/make.conf You're defining really systemd-free in the same sense that the FSF defines a really free distro (they think Debian FOSS-only isn't good enough). Sticking with the base profile should get you an experience about the same as what you'd have gotten 4 years ago before anybody heard of systemd, and going as far as you suggestion may cause problems if you use software that has been subsequently merged into systemd, but which is still available standalone (think udev/etc). But, to each their own, that is the Gentoo way. Just don't file any bugs if something breaks purely as a result of doing the steps above. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 22:09:49 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: I think the Handbook is getting better and better. However the systemd-openrc choice is something that needs to be explained early in the handbook from a neutral prospective. Let's face it, lots of folks become interested in Gentoo, often when they hear that you do not have to run systemd. I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate that choice *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom:: that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho. systemd-openrc is just one more choice the user has to make, except that this one is interpreted as involving PID 1, in the minds of some this seems to invoke large amounts of $MAGIC. The handbook covers choices like bootloader, system logger, cron and several more, but the systemd instructions are not part of the handbook. That choice is mentioned, so it should be explained in the handbook, not an external reference. Where does it end? In fire! Kids always compare new foods to chocolate; that's just how it is. Delineating why gentoo is superior (and it is when you are mature enough) is what we do not do formally. Somebody (like Alan or Neil) really should write up article on this, put it on the home page and call it 'The Wisdom and Wonders of Gentoo' or some such marketing hyperbole. If for no other reason, so we do not have to continue with this 'educational intro to gentoo' on gentoo-user. Now that is something I could do, it's close to my heart :-) Neil might even be willing to edit out my more senior rambling moments :-) If I could find the time :P -- Neil Bothwick If you can't be kind, be vague. pgpaDh5CvUyaF.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 22:00:35 +0100 Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: What sort of improvements do you get? libreoffice here takes about 1h30 to build, give or take 10 mins or so. Doesn't seem worth the extra hassle of ccache for an hour and a half. It varies, but it can more than halve the time taken. Well worth the minute or two it took to set it up to happen automatically. You appear to be building claws-mail from git (as do I), which seems in theory a good use of ccache. Am I understanding this correctly? I've never used ccache before, but with your helpful config info I'm about to try it.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:34:32 + (UTC), James wrote: Agreed. But we can (maybe eventually) offer more frequent live versions of gentoo, in a canned dvd(w/persistence) so that folks can test-drive gentoo, add a few packages and get comfortable before undertaking that long and winding manual install road? That's what Gentoo did years ago. You could download a DVD with prebuilt binary packages. It meant you could follow the handbook, but without changing use flags from the default profiles for that DVD, and get a running system in no time. I remember installing Gentoo on a PPC iBook about 10 years ago and it took an hour from booting the live DVD to having a working KDE desktop. Then I could tweak my USE flags and re-emerge stuff while the system was already usable. That for stopped for the traditional reason, lack of manpower, IIRC. All it would take... What it takes is someone to step up and offer to do the work. -- Neil Bothwick Did you hear about the blind prostitute? You have to hand it to her. pgpoSCG57YQH8.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Jc García jyo.garcia at gmail.com writes: I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate that choice *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom:: that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho. OpenRC is there on the stage3, systemd isn't, if you don't think about systemd you get an OpenRC installation, I think it would confuse more people to talk about choosing init system(especially noobs) right at the beginning of the handbook. I think during the installation (before the reboot) lots of software can be installed or removed. So that means that systemd and companion packages are part of the installation. And systemd is a choice during the profile selection part of an installation. Also, I was writing concerning what Felix had expressed. Maybe I cut out too much his writing about systemd, distrowatch and such. Gmane often causes me to cut more than I'd like, before posting. Clearly there is no perfect pathway. But some discussion early on about the (2) fundamental choices is warranted as it is a concern for many, especially noobs, that visit gentoo for a test drive? Perhaps a discussion document, maybe as a footnote in the handbook or the homepage? hth, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 06.08.2015 um 18:34 schrieb James: Or, We could also point them to existing gentoo derivatives for a test-drive:: pentoo, lilblue, sabayon, calculate etc etc first, if we are not going to roll more frequent live* images? That's not a good idea, at least not regarding Sabayon. They use systemd as their default init system.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thursday 06 Aug 2015 18:59:11 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:34:32 + (UTC), James wrote: Agreed. But we can (maybe eventually) offer more frequent live versions of gentoo, in a canned dvd(w/persistence) so that folks can test-drive gentoo, add a few packages and get comfortable before undertaking that long and winding manual install road? That's what Gentoo did years ago. You could download a DVD with prebuilt binary packages. It meant you could follow the handbook, but without changing use flags from the default profiles for that DVD, and get a running system in no time. I remember installing Gentoo on a PPC iBook about 10 years ago and it took an hour from booting the live DVD to having a working KDE desktop. Then I could tweak my USE flags and re-emerge stuff while the system was already usable. Wasn't that the GRP option? That for stopped for the traditional reason, lack of manpower, IIRC. All it would take... What it takes is someone to step up and offer to do the work. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 19:25:08 +0100, Mick wrote: That's what Gentoo did years ago. You could download a DVD with prebuilt binary packages. It meant you could follow the handbook, but without changing use flags from the default profiles for that DVD, and get a running system in no time. I remember installing Gentoo on a PPC iBook about 10 years ago and it took an hour from booting the live DVD to having a working KDE desktop. Then I could tweak my USE flags and re-emerge stuff while the system was already usable. Wasn't that the GRP option? That was it, I couldn't remember the name. -- Neil Bothwick Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world. pgpIuLu7gpwve.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
2015-08-06 10:34 GMT-06:00 James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com: I think the Handbook is getting better and better. However the systemd-openrc choice is something that needs to be explained early in the handbook from a neutral prospective. Let's face it, lots of folks become interested in Gentoo, often when they hear that you do not have to run systemd. I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate that choice *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom:: that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho. OpenRC is there on the stage3, systemd isn't, if you don't think about systemd you get an OpenRC installation, I think it would confuse more people to talk about choosing init system(especially noobs) right at the beginning of the handbook.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?,
Am 06.08.2015 um 18:59 schrieb Jc García: OpenRC is there on the stage3, systemd isn't, if you don't think about systemd you get an OpenRC installation, I think it would confuse more people to talk about choosing init system(especially noobs) right at the beginning of the handbook. To get a really systemd-free system you unfortunately need to do two additional steps: 1. Add USE=-systemd to your /etc/portage/make.conf 2. Add INSTALL_MASK=/lib/systemd /lib32/systemd /lib64/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib32/systemd /usr/lib64/systemd /etc/systemd to your /etc/portage/make.conf
