[Sprinklerforum] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Forward Flow testing valve arrangements

It comes from an elevated municipal water tank. Flow is not an issue. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | craig.pr...@jacobs.com |

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Forward Flow testing valve arrangements

NFPA 13 2021: 16.14.5.1.1 A 2 1∕ 2 in. (65 mm) hose valve shall be provided downstream of the backflow prevention valve for every 250 gpm (950 L/min) of flow rate required by the system demand including hose allowance where applicable. Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Forward Flow testing valve arrangements

I have no basis for this other than it seems to make sense to me. If I have 1800 gpm, I would provide (6) 2½” valves with an 8” test header supply. Now, I get that from NFPA 20. I can test a 1250 gpm to 150% or 1875 gpm using an 8” test header and (6) valves. I figure if it works for a pump

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Forward Flow testing valve arrangements

Craig, I’ve always used 250 gpm per hose valve as a ‘rule of thumb’ but if you think of it like you would a test header, NFPA 20 says you can flow 2000 gpm thru 6 valves, so you should be able to do the same for testing a backflow. Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. 940

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Forward Flow testing valve arrangements

Pretty good supply if you can flow 1800 gpm at a good pressure without a pump. > > On Jul 12, 2023 at 4:37 PM, mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com)> > wrote: > > > > > > Providing an array of 2.5” hose valves as a test header for

[Sprinklerforum] Forward Flow testing valve arrangements

Providing an array of 2.5” hose valves as a test header for testing the backflow preventer. Sprinkler System demand is around 1800 gpm. So, here’s the debate, when determining how many valves you need do you consider each valve capable of 250 gpm or 500 gpm flow? Nothing in NFPA 13, the

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Not a FDC but a wall hydrant tied into the building's sprinkler system. Not uncommon in areas where typical yard hydrants cannot be installed. BUT, is the building fire sprinkler system supply designed and capable of providing sufficient flow for hose operations? You don't typically connect

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Travis- Make sense, thank you. This is the first time I’ve ran across this. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: Travis Mack Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 3:49 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers Subject:

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

If this is a wall “hydrant”, then it is outside. So, I would put my outside hose there. You want this as a separate line taken from the supply side of your system control valve. How would you supply a hydrant that was to be located in the front of the building. It would come off before your

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Thanks! Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: Brett Peters Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 3:35 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ??? I would go back

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

I would go back to the Fire Department and get a clarification on water demand requirements for the wall hydrant, if it can come off the sprinkler system and provide the necessary water flow then there shouldn't be an issue with that, if not then a dedicated main line back to the water entry may

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Skyler- I can’t find a clear answer to where I need to tie this in. I’ve seen it needs to be its own stand-alone line right off the supply entering the building an I’ve also seen it coming off one of the FP system Mains. Any thoughts? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc.

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Old Pipe Scheduled Systems

Bobby, Here are a couple things to consider in this situation. 1. Have any modifications been made to the system over the years that were done without following the pipe schedule method? This usually is what will trigger a hydraulic review and is unfortunately pretty common in older

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Everyone already covered the difference between a wall hydrant and FDC, so I won't keep doing that. I have had a similar situation, adding a wall hydrant, and I'm curious if the standards would require outside or inside hose demand to be added to the fire sprinkler system calcs at the new

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Old Pipe Scheduled Systems

Thanks, I also found this in NFPA 25. [cid:image001.png@01D9B4D2.CC82B430] From: Fpdcdesign Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:48 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Old Pipe Scheduled Systems I see these all the time. 1. There

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Old Pipe Scheduled Systems

I see these all the time. 1. There is a section in 13 about water supplies for pipe schedule systems. That won’t give you something for a placard but it would tell you if there is sufficient water for it. 2. Placards are only required for hydraulically calculated

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Thanks! Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: Travis Mack Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:44 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ??? Well, it is a

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Thanks! Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ??? No worries. Like Travis

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Ryan- Is there some type of schematic available for this? Control valve, check valve, etc. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: Hinson, Ryan Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:35 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Well, it is a connection point for the fire department. So technically it is an FDC. However, you just need to understand that he wants to be able to draft water from that connection. So, you will need to give him an outlet. If you google "fire protection wall hydrant" you should be able to

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

No worries. Like Travis said, very the AHJ's expectations. This is a separate piping run from any interior system. R/ Ma Please rate our customer service Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET Engineering Designer IV FERGUSON

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Matt- I'm just regurgitating what the AHJ is saying. I think that's where the confusion is coming from. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:32 PM To:

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Very common in the Charlotte North Carolina region if I’m understanding the situation correctly. This sounds like an exception to 503.1.1 which allows an approved alternative means for fire access due to topography, waterways, or grade issues. These are outside hose connections or wall hydrants

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

As has been said by others. This is not an FDC and would result in monitoring issues within the building. What they are looking for is a wall hydrant which needs to be connected to the lead-in upstream of any building suppression systems. Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

He wants a wall hydrant. You need to find out if he is also expecting 1500 gpm at 20 psi or something like that. As Steve said, they may be OK just pumping to themselves with a wall hydrant. But, I'm betting you are going to need 4 or 6" pipe from the FDC on front to the wall hydrant on the

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

I think you are saying FDC, what I heard from the description is wall hydrant. R/ Matt Please rate our customer service Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET Engineering Designer IV FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC A Wholly Owned

[Sprinklerforum] Old Pipe Scheduled Systems

I am running into a lot of old systems that do not have hydraulic placard and some of them are old pipe scheduled system. Has anyone ran into an old pipe schedule system were the fire marshal is requesting hydraulic placards and if so has anyone found a way to satisfy the requirements without

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Ryan- Yes. They want to draw water from inside the building FP system to use in fore hoses for outside the building. "It's cheaper than adding a hydrant" Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: Hinson, Ryan Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2023 2:25

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Matt- So your saying it's ok to do? There's (2) systems fed off the front Riser so the FDC ties in there. What do you do for the "extra" FDC? Tie it off the back Main? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com From: matthew.will...@ferguson.com Sent:

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

That wouldn't technically be an FDC since an FDC contains a check valve facing the other direction and is used to supplement the sprinkler system, not the other way around. He would need hose valves and a PIV or some other exterior valve. Has he thought about the fact that if the system is

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

While that is certainly the perspective of many/most FDs, it doesn't resolve the fact that the check valve on an FDC won't allow water to be taken at that second connection, which is the implied intent. I think what the fire official means to say is that they want a wall hydrant off the

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

FDC...as in injection into the system on the back side in the absence of fire hydrants nearby doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean to draw water off the FW piping in the building to serve portable equipment for the parking lot storage? Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

I think he wants a wall hydrant to service the new areas. Cheaper than a hydrant. Craig D. Hanson, CFPS Senior Fire Plans Examiner West Coast Code Consultants, Inc. (WC³) Meridian Satellite Office *C:* 253.225.9977 | *E:* cra...@wc-3.com | www.WC-3.com *Teaming With Your

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Sounds like he wants a Wall Hydrant not an FDC. Which isn't common, but we've done it in the past when space or other conditions don't allow for a normal hydrant, or sometimes with AHJ approval because it's generally massively cheaper than digging up and running a bunch of underground. Mike

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

Nope. Exterior fire operations are as or more important than internal. Seen this many times for different applications. R/ Matt Please rate our customer service Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET Engineering Designer IV

[Sprinklerforum] 2nd FDC Instead of a Hydrant ???

This is a first. We recently did a sprinkler system for a 2-story storage building. The owner is now putting storage containers in the back parking lot and the AHJ wants him to add a 2nd FDC on the back of the building, there's already one on the front, and use it to "supply" fire hoses if