[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] biodiesel in nederland colorado?
Okay... Is this an obvious declaration of a need to develop a biodieseler's index of small producers? Todd Swearingen Yes. We have suppliers listed at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html Biofuels supplies and suppliers And much besides, we don't get to hear of small producers, and we're much more interested in them anyway. I'd love to be able to offer a list of small producers, local producers, coops etc. Also local groups, local workshops, local what have you. Just send me the info, please, and I'll upload it and announce it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Theresa Cecot To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] biodiesel in nederland colorado? help looking for a supplier of biodiesel. anyone out there, community or group, who has started from ground zero that has info on how to begin... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Suppliers?
Reports of the death of Homestead Inc. and the cessation of Yellow Brand PREMIUM Biodiesel have been greatly exaggerated. I am sorry that your web listing no longer includes the quality product I produce, if it ever did include my production. Your list would be far more helpful to the public if it were trying to be comprehensive, rather than just the good old boys in the NBB. Homestead Inc. now sells Yellow brand Biodiesel Degreaser. This product is effective in parts washing machines and other cleaning chores. It is non-volatile, wonderfully effective either warm or cold, non-toxic, and can be safely disposed of in any waste oil burner, making the other oil even burn cleaner! Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser is available daily at Homestead Inc. in Ashfield, MA. Call 800 285-4533 (or 413 628-4533) for availability and sales information. Current prices is $2,40 per gallon, or in a handy, recycled, 5 gallon package for $13.00 Tom Leue In a message dated 4/28/02 2:51:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay... Is this an obvious declaration of a need to develop a biodieseler's index of small producers? Todd Swearingen Yes. We have suppliers listed at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html Biofuels supplies and suppliers And much besides, we don't get to hear of small producers, and we're much more interested in them anyway. I'd love to be able to offer a list of small producers, local producers, coops etc. Also local groups, local workshops, local what have you. Just send me the info, please, and I'll upload it and announce it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] murky
- Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] Anyway, I don«t quite understand how filtering removes cloudiness that comes from liquid particles (either water or glycerides). Christian, the material that my filtration removes is more of a white soapy mature than water or glycerides. It looks much the same colour as clean white tallow but it is more uniform in consistency and does not set at room temp. My reaction times were, I admit it, perhaps too short. I mixed four independent 1 liter batches, and they were each left to react for about 30 to 40 minutes. The reaction seemed complete after 10 minutes or so, and I thought 30-40 min would do. In light of what Todd and others have reported I have extended my mixing times. This may improve the clarity of the BD but I think my use of conc aqueous NaOH is a contributing factor. Strangely enough results from a test using varying levels of NaOH, with a fixed level of methanol on the same feedstock, gave clearer unwashed BD for higher levels of NaOH than optimum (titration) or low levels. Viscosity and SG were also lower for high levels of NaOH. These tests bear repeating as the mixing was of short duration. I suspect that optimum mixing would level out the differences. Regards, Paul Gobert. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/02 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
Keith, Thanks for the time machine. Makes me want to vomit that about all Americans know are 283 Ford Falcons and the whole bastardized ilk when they trip back into time. God to own a mini anything when Detroit was at its worst Hey...wait a minutethey still are! Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? I drove a BMW minicooper yesterday, and although it was cute, I would not call 33mpg on premium unleaded clean. Hi Steve You want to take it out on a really tight and twisty mountain road that you know really well. Wait a mo while I shift gear... right, Old Fart mode... These young people of today - yesterday he drove one. I drove one in 1963. Hot little thing, then, handled really nicely. The Minis were introduced in 1959, replacing the old Morris Minor, which is a sort of 4-wheeled equivalent of a DC-3 Dakota. Start to consider that level of technology a bit and you get to thinking it's all improved a helluva lot since then, but somehow everything's gone steeply downhill, and could these two things have something to do with each other? If you really like KISS and AT, maybe you'll stop with the Dakota and the Morris Minor. Do they still make Morris Minors in India? They were, until recently. Elsewhere they're collector's items. Anyway, the Mini replaced it, and cost at the time 499 British pounds sterling (about a thousand dollars?). 850cc 4-cylinder, the Cooper version was 1,000cc, much faster. I had a Mini, my first car. I had another one a few years later, working on a newspaper in Johannesburg. I used to go to Cape Town for the weekend, one thousand miles, put my foot down and took it off again when I got there 12-13 hours later. Need big cars for big distances? Nope. The Mini and the Mini Cooper were made by an old company called Austin that had recently merged with another old company called Morris, and finally became BMC (British Motor Corporation), and then died. The story of British industry. What's really interesting about the Mini is the design. It was a real trend-setter, the first transverse-engine front-wheel drive, and the basic design has hardly changed in more than 40 years, just steadily improved. The only comparison I can think of is the VW Beetle. Beetle owners and Mini owners hated each other. So why change models every year? Could it be perhaps just marketing and a packaging job? I think that's a strong point in the Mini Cooper's favour. In deciding which car's green and which isn't the eco-costs of manufacturing ought to be considered, and this kind of design continuity surely lowers those costs. So, though the fuel economy isn't that great (it never was - was surprised to see it rating green in that story), it might be cleaner than it looks at first. The Japanese love Mini Coopers, by the way. Regards Keith Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:23 AM Subject: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 AlterNet -- So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Allie Gottlieb, Metro Silicon Valley http://www.metroactive.com April 19, 2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Results on Revised 2 Stage Acid/Base Method
Ken, I'm really sorry for not getting to this before I dealt with other stuff. Here be the coupe de grace An acid/base requires no titration Want to here some more good news.? Start working acid/base reactions and you can probably reduce your base catalyst by half or three quarters, thereby reducing your wash problems and increasing your yield. I just posted a general response to one of Keith's questions, under the subject line of Phosphoric. That had some pertinent thought process throughout. What I can say unequivocally is that an acid/base reaction, conducted carefully and properly, will probably increase your yield by ~4%. I certainly wouldn't sneeze at that, as it also reduces your capital inputs and reduces the cost of your effluent management programs. As for taking accumulated recovered FFAs and conducting an acid esterification that only results in 70% conversionI'd say that you are about 10 giant steps in front of most other persons at the home biodieseler's level. Okay...so you have to reprocess 30% of your original 100% FFAs. Are you not already 70% ahead of the game? If you've gone in this direction, I doubt that there is much holding you back. Your next mission, should you choose to accept it, (Mission Impossible tele series for those who don't know it) is to pull off a 100% complete esterification reaction... Just one problem there.esterification reactions happen best under high temp and pressue. My best guess under such circumstances is that you would be better off switching to an acid/base method and not accumulating recovered FFAs in such high quantities in the first place. I just don't know exactly what the conversion of FFAs is in an STP acid stage. I have no doubt that it is not entirely complete. For now, it is considerably better than nothing. In time, we should have a barnyard and solid answer to this question. Hopefully in short time. In the meantime, however, I have to askIf what you are trying to convert to esters are 100% FFAsdo you really see any need to go into a base stage? Ain't been there...Ain't done thatBut fixin' to.Just seems like a logical question as the glycerin is already cracked and non-present. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Results on Revised 2 Stage Acid/Base Method Todd Swearingen wrote: We've been doing some testing on acid/base reactions lately Great data, I hung on every word!.. The only thing I'd've liked woulda been some titrations along the way. My big question is the obvious one --what does all the acid step really DO for us? Hopefully, it reduces the FFA level of the original oil from some gawdawful level, say, 20%, down to 2% before you go into the base-catalyzed stage, so you can use really dirty oil (or, in my case, clean oil with lots of FFA intentionally added, having been recovered as such from the accumulated glycerine phases of weeks of normal reactions). Unfortunately, my own titrations on that score seem to indicate I'm only getting about 70% esterification in the acid step, which still leaves a lot of soap in the base step. Did you notice a reduction in the amount of soap from typical to the 2-stage process? Did you do any pH checks of your wash water along the way? I'll be doing some very similar experiments this weekend, using a combination of clean oil and extracted FFA -- will keep y'all informed. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biodiesel in nederland colorado?
Okay... Is this an obvious declaration of a need to develop a biodieseler's index of small producers? Todd Swearingen Yes. We have suppliers listed at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html Biofuels supplies and suppliers And much besides, we don't get to hear of small producers, and we're much more interested in them anyway. I'd love to be able to offer a list of small producers, local producers, coops etc. Also local groups, local workshops, local what have you. Just send me the info, please, and I'll upload it and announce it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Theresa Cecot To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] biodiesel in nederland colorado? help looking for a supplier of biodiesel. anyone out there, community or group, who has started from ground zero that has info on how to begin... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Hi Motie --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure you'd think of a better way. Courts, sure, and you're dead right about patents. Patents don't mean much these days, unless you're a big corp, and not even then - the big corps spend a lot of time and money fighting each other over patents, But I reckon you're being a little hard on your human brothers and sisters, I don't think we've fouled a lot of things up, pretty good record really, despite generally challenging circumstances of just about every conceivable type. But, brothers and sisters are one matter, but when it comes to our bosses, our betters and overlords and their various gangs, and all our committees, from village hall to Washington, wherever and whenever, yeah, they'd foul it up. Don't give the whole town a bad press just because of a couple of local thugs. Maybe you'd be looking for ways to give it away to ordinary folks, so that ordinary folks could keep hold of it. Hey, you might even get rich doing that, who knows? If you managed to do such a thing for the world I don't think it'd let you starve. Best Keith Please forgive my cynicism, but it's also very possible the inventor would be worse than broke, and possibly in jail. As soon as this wonderful machine made it to market, the Big Energy Corps would have their own version, with a slight change made and patented, and would have you in Court for Patent infringement until your legal bills are so high your grandchildren won't be able to pay them off. The fact that you were the original inventor of the concept would be of no consequence to them. Motie I don't think you're a cynic. I bend it a bit probably, but to me a cynic believes in human frailty, and generally it's more than just belief, it's behaviour - manipulating human frailty for your own gain, battening on it. You're a sceptic, but that's healthy, not manipulative, and probably essential to survival. Anyway, whichever, as I said to m65, and keep saying, you have to distinguish between humans, frail or otherwise, and society's institutions, which are another matter altogether. But again, I think you do, and it's the institutions you're talking of here. There are more ways than these, there's no need to follow the accepted channelings our betters would have us follow. There's more to the world than just the US too, and the implications of the hypothetical wondrous machine would certainly know no borders, no matter what happened - even were it suppressed. Did you read this below, what I posted when Kirk first asked? That was more or less off the top of my head, but I think some out-of-the-box, unchanneled thinking could find good ways of doing such a thing, maybe even in the US. Level playing fields always seem to tilt steeply in the same direction (north, if you're a Third Worlder), but widening the terrain can help a lot, if not using a different terrain altogether, or a variety of terrains. Choose your own terrain. Guerrilla action. Have you read Sun Tzu? I am very interested in the last question of the series. What would you do if it was your invention? Worry myself to death? g Maybe I'd (very cautiously) go into partnership with a country like Tuvalu or Swaziland or something, if I could convince myself that I might not be doing them tremendous harm, or maybe with the Dalai Lama, if he'd have me. Or maybe I'd use Journey to Forever - since a village blacksmith could build it, do just that, in as many remote villages as possible, in as many really poor countries as possible, all with really lousy rural communications systems, and all without saying a word. If it were really as good as you say, they'd quickly spread it to other villages before anyone could do too much about it. Keep a close watch and at the first sign of enemy action bust the story to the world press in a really big way. And publish full designs and all relevant information in the public domain all over the Internet, with direct mailings to every grass-roots NGO in the world. Hey, I like it! You'd have to move fast though, very good coordination. But it could be done. Wow, what a scenario!! Best wishes Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Phosphoric
Thanks for posting that.You answered a lot of my questions too. -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 7:01 AM To: Keith Addison Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Phosphoric Oky Keith, I've backtracked and got all the late email addressed or deleted. Now what was that question? Phosphoric was it? Here is the ugly little secret. Phosphoric has the propensity of breaking down an ester. What is broken ester? Simply put...it's an FFA. What is an FFA? It's a glyceride minus the glycerin...mono-, di- or tri-...it doesn't matter. So you have a glyceride that has been cracked and turned into an ester. The glycerin has dropped. Yet the addition of an acid such as phosphoric can crack an ester, taking it right back to an FFA. Then there's the really double ugly secret First, you might want to refer to The Soapmaker's Companion, a wonderful soapmaker's guide that can be enormously useful...even to a biodieseler. Both FFAs and glycerides saponify - turn into soap in the presence of base. It's not just FFAs that turn into soap, which apparently many people think when they contemplate turning toward 2 stage acid/base reactions and away from straight base processes. So in an acid/base you esterify the FFAs into esters in the acid stage, and perhaps a few glycerides are transesterified as well - not many, but a few. Cool. One problem solved, as there is now a lesser requirement for base catalyst in the base stage, because none of it will be bound up by FFAs. But from my perspective, there remains one considerable problem - it revolves around the general concept of catalysts and the time hardened tradition of biodieselers who have cut their teeth on straight base reactions and the formulations they have used for so long. Most of us who have performed straight base reactions titrate in order to determine how much compensation must be made to override the presence of FFAs. And most of us have relied upon the 3.5 grams NaOH + x formula. The really fanciful part that few people have given much thought to in the backyard biodieseler's environment is that catalyst is never destroyed. It may get bound up, such as with FFAs or particulates, but if both of those variables are compensated for, the remaining free catalyst is there to do its job. So...define the purpose of a catalyst. Essentially adding extra amounts of catalyst accomplishes virtually nothing save for reducing reaction times, as catalyst is not destroyed. Essentially, even in a straight base esterification, it should only take a gram or less of catalyst beyond the titration requirement to effect a completed reaction over time. The biggest problem is that few people want to take the time. One-half gram of catalyst under heavy agitation might take 24 hours or perhaps even longer to convert 1 liter of oil. But the beauty is that if only one-half gram is used, 3.0 grams are omitted in comparison to some of the tried and true methods in the biodieseler's bibles. If you can get rid of this amount of base, you can also get rid of a relative amount of acid neutralizer, whether it be in a water wash or the FFA recovery from the glycerin layer. But the primary benefit of base catalyst reduction to the lowest possible level (lowest possible level to meet specific demands) is the reduction of soap formation. Yes, the base is a catalyst. But yes, it also saponifies triglycerides - it is conducive to making soap, even in the lack of presence of FFAs. The primary trick is to get rid of the FFAs, thereby reducing the volume of excess base catalyst needed for compensation, then create a system where time is not the most important element...where the method of manufacture and the energy comsumed to create ester manufacture is at a minimum and in balance with the least possible amount of catalyst appropriate to the specific application. If this is 15 gallons expected to react completely in two hours, the catalyst requirement will be heavy, and so will the soap manufacture. If this is 500 gallons expected to react completely in only 24 hours under heavy agitation, the catalyst requirement can be minimized to extremely small levels, which will in turn reduce soap manufacture, and in turn, reduce wash problems. Start throwing phosphoric acid into the esters in order to neutralize base catalyst as a result of impatience, and you start to break down esters into FFAs, as well as any soaps present that have been created by excessive catalyst (or even inexcessive catalyst). Do that to too high a degree and you can kiss meeting the ASTM D-6751 standard, the EU standard, or the Ausie standard good bye. Think of it as walking a tight rope. With a balance bar and sound head about you, it's not a problem for nearly anyone of limitted ability to get across the rope. If one is prone to panic, impatience or need for extrely expeditious reactions, the
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
My 92 Honda Civic has been doing it for years, that is how I avoided having to have a truck. Kim AOAR Welch B. wrote: i did not know that a small car could pull a trailer and not overheat. -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:02 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Hey... I just drove a 1986 VW Golf, filled to the brim with biodiesel, hauling a trailer full of hay and about 400 pounds of boiler parts and got ~44mpg. I'll take utility and green over a chick car and green any dayI'm t old for chick. Just keep praying for acid drought, another Arab oil embargo and $3.50 a gallon at the pump. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: steve spence To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Today I test drove a new vw beetle, turbo diesel. Now this is one fine automobile. 44mpg isn't shabby either. saw diesel today for $1.23 / us gallon. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: stewart hyde [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Agreed My 14 year old Citroen BX turbodesel/GTI hybrid Gets 50 mpg (Imperial 4.55 ltr) and runs beautifilly with rapeseed oil @50% fuel extender Stewart from Wales UK where fuel is almost one dollar per litre. - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? I drove a BMW minicooper yesterday, and although it was cute, I would not call 33mpg on premium unleaded clean. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:23 AM Subject: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 AlterNet -- So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Allie Gottlieb, Metro Silicon Valley http://www.metroactive.com http://www.metroactive.com April 19, 2002 If you're like me, and you are, you want a good, cheap, fast, safe and cute car that can take you to work and back, and out for fun, on little or no gas. You also need room to cart around your laptop, your nonfat latte, a pal and your four-piece silver-sparkle Ludwig drum set, which in my case is named Natasha J. Sparky. Since we've got so much in common, it makes sense to share car-search secrets. I'll start. What I've learned about the latest electric, hybrid and just plain cuter- or cleaner-than-thou vehicles that you can buy or lease at this moment there are plenty of choices, combinations and features. Sorting them all out is confusing but not impossible. The ones accessible to me as of presstime were the BMW Mini Cooper, the Honda Insight, the Honda Civic Hybrid, the Honda Civic GX natural-gas vehicle, the Toyota Prius, the Toyota Rav4 EV, the Corbin Sparrow, the Ford Th!nk, the Ford Ranger EV and the DaimlerChrysler GEM. Idling Politics Here's another thing I've learned. Despite all the chatter about fuel efficiency from the Legislature lately, and the attempts by various cities to get their fleets on a greener track, this has been a slow-going revolution with plenty of setbacks. Witness last month's rise and fall of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards: Senator John Kerry's (D-Mass.) proposal to require new vehicles to average a respectable 36 mpg of gas by 2015 did a giant
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
had an '80 escort, does that count? Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Keith, Thanks for the time machine. Makes me want to vomit that about all Americans know are 283 Ford Falcons and the whole bastardized ilk when they trip back into time. God to own a mini anything when Detroit was at its worst Hey...wait a minutethey still are! Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? I drove a BMW minicooper yesterday, and although it was cute, I would not call 33mpg on premium unleaded clean. Hi Steve You want to take it out on a really tight and twisty mountain road that you know really well. Wait a mo while I shift gear... right, Old Fart mode... These young people of today - yesterday he drove one. I drove one in 1963. Hot little thing, then, handled really nicely. The Minis were introduced in 1959, replacing the old Morris Minor, which is a sort of 4-wheeled equivalent of a DC-3 Dakota. Start to consider that level of technology a bit and you get to thinking it's all improved a helluva lot since then, but somehow everything's gone steeply downhill, and could these two things have something to do with each other? If you really like KISS and AT, maybe you'll stop with the Dakota and the Morris Minor. Do they still make Morris Minors in India? They were, until recently. Elsewhere they're collector's items. Anyway, the Mini replaced it, and cost at the time 499 British pounds sterling (about a thousand dollars?). 850cc 4-cylinder, the Cooper version was 1,000cc, much faster. I had a Mini, my first car. I had another one a few years later, working on a newspaper in Johannesburg. I used to go to Cape Town for the weekend, one thousand miles, put my foot down and took it off again when I got there 12-13 hours later. Need big cars for big distances? Nope. The Mini and the Mini Cooper were made by an old company called Austin that had recently merged with another old company called Morris, and finally became BMC (British Motor Corporation), and then died. The story of British industry. What's really interesting about the Mini is the design. It was a real trend-setter, the first transverse-engine front-wheel drive, and the basic design has hardly changed in more than 40 years, just steadily improved. The only comparison I can think of is the VW Beetle. Beetle owners and Mini owners hated each other. So why change models every year? Could it be perhaps just marketing and a packaging job? I think that's a strong point in the Mini Cooper's favour. In deciding which car's green and which isn't the eco-costs of manufacturing ought to be considered, and this kind of design continuity surely lowers those costs. So, though the fuel economy isn't that great (it never was - was surprised to see it rating green in that story), it might be cleaner than it looks at first. The Japanese love Mini Coopers, by the way. Regards Keith Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:23 AM Subject: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 AlterNet -- So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Allie Gottlieb, Metro Silicon Valley http://www.metroactive.com April 19, 2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002.
[biofuel] Re: Phosphoric
Oky Keith, Thankyou! I'm proofreading a scan of an old book on fats and oils (1928) which is really teaching me a lot, answering a lot of questions I've had. I'll upload it to the Biofuels Library at Journey to Forever when I've finished it and post a link here. I like old books like this because they're clear, and the technology hasn't gotten too involved with a whole bunch of esoteric and heavily jargonised laboratory stuff that no ordinary earthling can comprehend. It's not as if the old stuff is discredited, not at all. And the technology is about at the level that backyarders can deal with - well, much better than that, of course, but you're not left with a whole bunch of principles you can't possibly adapt without a nuclear reactor or something. Anyway, yes, quite right - FFAs, glycerides, acids. Very interesting, this and your response to Ken on acid-base processes and cutting down on the base - or not, the acid-base process as-is. I think we progress. Better understanding, better information, better processes, better quality, less waste. And then? On to enzymes? Not to say anything's obsolete - 2-stage acid-base doesn't mean single-stage base is no use anymore, it just extends the range of options available. I've backtracked and got all the late email addressed or deleted. Now what was that question? Phosphoric was it? Here is the ugly little secret. Phosphoric has the propensity of breaking down an ester. What is broken ester? Simply put...it's an FFA. What is an FFA? It's a glyceride minus the glycerin...mono-, di- or tri-...it doesn't matter. So you have a glyceride that has been cracked and turned into an ester. The glycerin has dropped. Yet the addition of an acid such as phosphoric can crack an ester, taking it right back to an FFA. Then there's the really double ugly secret First, you might want to refer to The Soapmaker's Companion, a wonderful soapmaker's guide that can be enormously useful...even to a biodieseler. Right again - I don't have that one (I'll check it out, thanks), but I've learnt a lot from soapmaking. Left with some questions too - I think I mentioned one of them here before, and now it's come up again in the fats and oils book. Different fats and oils all have different saponification numbers, and if you're making soap you need to know what they are to calculate the right amount of lye. But we just use 3.5g plus whatever titration says (and it seems to say various things), titrating to pH8.5, mix it up, chuck it in and go, no matter what kind of oil it is. I'm interested to see how Paul's tests turn out, finding that higher-than-titration levels of NaOH seem to be giving a better result. That seems to be true for tallow, and there have been other reports indicating similar inconsistencies. (Paul, if you read this, I got waylaid on the work I'd planned with tallow, but I'll get at it soon, I've got quite a lot of fresh pure tallow here now, enough for a whole series of tests.) That 3.5g figure for virgin oil (of whatever ilk) isn't precise, it varies between 3.1 and 3.5, which makes for quite a big potential error, especially with high FFA oils, where it counts more. Could these saponification numbers be used to correct the basic 3.1-3.5g figure? What you're suggesting below with the acid-base process and reducing NaOH could be one good answer, good stuff. It would also be good, though, to tune up the old single-stage if possible. Both FFAs and glycerides saponify - turn into soap in the presence of base. It's not just FFAs that turn into soap, which apparently many people think when they contemplate turning toward 2 stage acid/base reactions and away from straight base processes. So in an acid/base you esterify the FFAs into esters in the acid stage, and perhaps a few glycerides are transesterified as well - not many, but a few. Cool. One problem solved, as there is now a lesser requirement for base catalyst in the base stage, because none of it will be bound up by FFAs. But from my perspective, there remains one considerable problem - it revolves around the general concept of catalysts and the time hardened tradition of biodieselers who have cut their teeth on straight base reactions and the formulations they have used for so long. Most of us who have performed straight base reactions titrate in order to determine how much compensation must be made to override the presence of FFAs. And most of us have relied upon the 3.5 grams NaOH + x formula. The really fanciful part that few people have given much thought to in the backyard biodieseler's environment is that catalyst is never destroyed. It may get bound up, such as with FFAs or particulates, but if both of those variables are compensated for, the remaining free catalyst is there to do its job. So...define the purpose of a catalyst. Essentially adding extra amounts of catalyst accomplishes virtually nothing save for reducing reaction times,
Re: [biofuel] Re: Acrylamides, medium-risk carcinogens, found in some fried high-carb foods
I think biodiesel or SVO will still come ahead of MTBE,lead,sulphur,benzene etc. Yes, this made more sense once you and the other poster spelled it out. The thing to do is to analyze the products of combustion, not just the ingredients. If the products of biodiesel combustion are not particularly worse than the products of non-bio diesel combustion (or are better) then that would be cool. Though I imagine just saying to analyze this and interpreting the results, and doing those things, are different matters. Reminds of one of my favorite environmental Oil-Products stories. About 10-15 years ago in Indiana (Northern I think) there was some flooding and it was very bad. Then it was discovered that several houses had been highly contaminated with PCB's and-or some other not-compatible-with-human-habitation chemicals. How did they get there, it was wondered? Ah, well, they had been in the home heating oil of the denizens, unbeknownst to those denizens. It was not at all legal for the oil company to place those chemicals in the oil. I am not sure what the claims made in court ultimately were, whether they claimed it was accidental or if it was clear that the home owners had been duped into disposing of chemicals under their own noses, but I just admired the whole scheme of it. Pretty much spelled out the chemical-PR-manipulation an Oil Company thinks it can get away with. I think we need to be humble should we wish to claim to be able to go up against such creativity and genius. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false
On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:31:36 +0200, you wrote: hello all. please I would like information about fuel cell where can I find reliable contact of fuel cell and solar PV units for a project. thank you. a.tov PV is much simpler and I will sort of assume you can find some in your area. FC, it depends on the size. If you wanted to power a large industrial building then you'd have to go to United Technologies, Fuel Cell Energy, maybe Global Thermoelectric, Plug Power or maybe H Power or Ballard or even DCH. There are others, but those would *claim* to be have something. For smaller, say to power a car, it's hard to say. I can tell you some who are working with carmakers, but that doesn't mean they'd have anything available to you right now. A few working with carmakers, Hydrogenics (GM), Ballard, Millenium (Peuogot, etc.) For powering a stationary thing, I think the two closest to consumer production are perhaps HPOW and-or PLUG, maybe a few others. I've heard some rumor that HPOW was close to doing something this year, and in some joint working with a PV concern as well. This is not comprehensive info. There are many many people making claims in fuel cells. Bottom line is I don't know of a straight answer on buying a fuel cell easily, but there are some who are within one or two years of putting one on a Home Depot Shelf for you to buy. Oh yeah, I think Coleman was working on bringing something to market this year, I don't recall if it was Ballard's design or someone else's. Also, I haven't researched this in about six months, so things may have changed dramatically. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Results on Revised 2 Stage Acid/Base Method
Todd wrote: An acid/base requires no titration I think Aleks' method is good up to about 8% FFA in the oil -- at that level, you're right, titration is unnecessary. I tried some 16% FFA oil (titrates at 21 ml NaOH!), and titration after the acid step indicated I still had 5% FFA left, way too much for his base step to work with the stated proportions. Okay...so you have to reprocess 30% of your original 100% FFAs. Are you not already 70% ahead of the game? Yes and no -- the problem is separating the ester from the unconverted FFA. If you start with oil containing 8% FFA and end up with 2% FFA, that's not too much soap to deal with in the base step. But starting with 100% FFA, and trying to wash out 30% of it as soap is another story In the meantime, however, I have to askIf what you are trying to convert to esters are 100% FFAsdo you really see any need to go into a base stage? SOME kind of base stage is necessary to separate the ester from the unconverted FFAs, even if it's just a neutralizing step (much like caustic refining) to wash out the FFAs as soap. The idea of using clean oil to dilute the FFAs and processing the whole thing with a 2-step is just one idea. My best guess under such circumstances is that you would be better off switching to an acid/base method and not accumulating recovered FFAs in such high quantities in the first place. That's the idea of diluting the FFAs with clean oil, but if 8% is the most I can put in a batch, it doesn't help much. Again, for a little background, the only reason I have free FFA lying around at all is that I clean it out of the recovered glycerine phase before neutralizing and composting (or flushing). The FFA (or soap) is, I think, too nasty to dispose of that way. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Please forgive my cynicism, but it's also very possible the inventor would be worse than broke, and possibly in jail. As soon as this wonderful machine made it to market, the Big Energy Corps would have their own version, with a slight change made and patented, and would have you in Court for Patent infringement until your legal bills are so high your grandchildren won't be able to pay them off. The fact that you were the original inventor of the concept would be of no consequence to them. Motie I don't think you're a cynic. I bend it a bit probably, but to me a cynic believes in human frailty, and generally it's more than just belief, it's behaviour - manipulating human frailty for your own gain, battening on it. You're a sceptic, but that's healthy, not manipulative, and probably essential to survival. Anyway, whichever, as I said to m65, and keep saying, you have to distinguish between humans, frail or otherwise, and society's institutions, which are another matter altogether. But again, I think you do, and it's the institutions you're talking of here. All this linguistics and philosophy not withstanding, and however pertinent, I think motie hit the nail right on the head. I'm not sure that's what would actually would happen, but I definitely think that in many cases if an invention is judged somewhat desireable, it is a repugant part of 21st century business strategy to copy it (illegally) and modify it and patent the modified version so as to bring action against the original. Now, a further thought in response to your allusions to what you would do, and probably are doing to some extent, is fine, that sounds like a plan. Better than no plan, modified in response to what you found wouldn't work, etc. A few points: to me inventors and proponents of this or that energy solution lose some credibility when they speak of this or that energy solution as *the* solution. There is no such thing in a competitive economy, if only because there is more than one way to skin a cat. Biofuel proponents, inventors of terrific new battery solutions, inventors of great schemes to harvest wind, solar, geothermal, wave, tidal (not the same thing as wave) energy, inventors of ways to make nuclear dramatically safer, inventors of seemingly mundane doodads to make cars more efficient and thus really make a contribution: to the extent that their inventions are real and will do what they will say, they have a part-answer to that aspect of our lives which requires energy. But none of them, not a single one, has an invention which is so dramatic that it should be regarded as the be-all end-all. Even a fictitious Galtian device which easily harvested enough atmospheric static electricity to power most needs all inventions have a place and are not the only thing around. For one thing they each can be categorized (primary energy source, intermediary transportation-energy-storage, UPS, more-effecient-conversion, etc. To point out this diversity is to show respect for the reality both good and bad of each invention. Anyway, all that said, returning to what would happen to the fool, I mean guy, who brought out a very good energy invention, it is not necessary to spell out in a simplistic chain of events what would happen to him, or to his invention. That is, it is not necessary to prove this before credibilty can be given to the idea that somehow the invention would have a tough time getting out there. Sometimes the way things work is a lot sloppier than that or seemingly so. I rather enjoyed the Morris article you posted the other day about the history of Ethanol since Lincoln and before. And I noticed that, gee, somehow, it just never quite overcame what appeared to be the Oil interests working against it. Not for more than a century anyway. To this day, the drug laws are still used against it, without any comment by anyone prominent. What has particularly ticked me off in recent years is to see the Auto companies, which are *not* oil companies though they may have ties, working so needlessly against another big non-fossil-fuel which is electricity. Ridiculous and dramatically anti-patriotic. By the way, I don't know that Tesla was off-key. I was just referring to the fmany posters on the net who want to get into a Tesla-was-the-man discussion at the drop of a hat, and look for any pretext to introduce his name to a discussion. Those are whom I meant by tesla-heads. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false
tryhttp://fcv.ucdavis.edu/ or http://.fuelcells.org/greg - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:31:36 +0200, you wrote: hello all. please I would like information about fuel cell where can I find reliable contact of fuel cell and solar PV units for a project. thank you. a.tov PV is much simpler and I will sort of assume you can find some in your area. FC, it depends on the size. If you wanted to power a large industrial building then you'd have to go to United Technologies, Fuel Cell Energy, maybe Global Thermoelectric, Plug Power or maybe H Power or Ballard or even DCH. There are others, but those would *claim* to be have something. For smaller, say to power a car, it's hard to say. I can tell you some who are working with carmakers, but that doesn't mean they'd have anything available to you right now. A few working with carmakers, Hydrogenics (GM), Ballard, Millenium (Peuogot, etc.) For powering a stationary thing, I think the two closest to consumer production are perhaps HPOW and-or PLUG, maybe a few others. I've heard some rumor that HPOW was close to doing something this year, and in some joint working with a PV concern as well. This is not comprehensive info. There are many many people making claims in fuel cells. Bottom line is I don't know of a straight answer on buying a fuel cell easily, but there are some who are within one or two years of putting one on a Home Depot Shelf for you to buy. Oh yeah, I think Coleman was working on bringing something to market this year, I don't recall if it was Ballard's design or someone else's. Also, I haven't researched this in about six months, so things may have changed dramatically. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
Steve, Found a 99' Jetta TDI for $6900. Needs a couple of front fenders, right side hit, needs a fr/f ront door, but mechanically perfect with 51,ooo miles. I'm I'm going to make the guy an offer tomorrow. Wish me luck. Jesse Portfolio: http://www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Today I test drove a new vw beetle, turbo diesel. Now this is one fine automobile. 44mpg isn't shabby either. saw diesel today for $1.23 / us gallon. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: stewart hyde [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Agreed My 14 year old Citroen BX turbodesel/GTI hybrid Gets 50 mpg (Imperial 4.55 ltr) and runs beautifilly with rapeseed oil @50% fuel extender Stewart from Wales UK where fuel is almost one dollar per litre. - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? I drove a BMW minicooper yesterday, and although it was cute, I would not call 33mpg on premium unleaded clean. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:23 AM Subject: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 AlterNet -- So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Allie Gottlieb, Metro Silicon Valley http://www.metroactive.com April 19, 2002 If you're like me, and you are, you want a good, cheap, fast, safe and cute car that can take you to work and back, and out for fun, on little or no gas. You also need room to cart around your laptop, your nonfat latte, a pal and your four-piece silver-sparkle Ludwig drum set, which in my case is named Natasha J. Sparky. Since we've got so much in common, it makes sense to share car-search secrets. I'll start. What I've learned about the latest electric, hybrid and just plain cuter- or cleaner-than-thou vehicles that you can buy or lease at this moment there are plenty of choices, combinations and features. Sorting them all out is confusing but not impossible. The ones accessible to me as of presstime were the BMW Mini Cooper, the Honda Insight, the Honda Civic Hybrid, the Honda Civic GX natural-gas vehicle, the Toyota Prius, the Toyota Rav4 EV, the Corbin Sparrow, the Ford Th!nk, the Ford Ranger EV and the DaimlerChrysler GEM. Idling Politics Here's another thing I've learned. Despite all the chatter about fuel efficiency from the Legislature lately, and the attempts by various cities to get their fleets on a greener track, this has been a slow-going revolution with plenty of setbacks. Witness last month's rise and fall of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards: Senator John Kerry's (D-Mass.) proposal to require new vehicles to average a respectable 36 mpg of gas by 2015 did a giant belly flop. SUVs get to be an estimated 25 percent more polluting than other cars. Gasoline has drivers over an oil barrel, and so, as they do in any time of war with oil-producing nations, gas prices are going up. Despite all this, a good clean car is still hard to find. It seems like we should have evolved more by now. For years, there's been hope that cars will become greener in the form of research on cleaner cars. The web is overflowing with information about alternative fuel vehicles from the U.S. Department of Energy and agencies like the Natural Resources Defense Council that push for fuel-efficiency legislation. Car dealers, however, blame the public's disinterest for the Greenmobile's underwhelming entrance into the market. Almost no one pays any real attention to environmental ratings when buying a car, the dealers say.
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
While there's some to argue with in the author's story, I'm glad she chose to do it, so that's good. I wondered about this claim, below, that the EPA forces automakers to meet a ZEV standard by 2003. I assume that this is mistaken and that the author is confusing the Cal EPA with CARB. Am I mistaken? I know that some other states have talked about adopting California standards as a measure, but I am not aware of any Federal thing that mirrors that Cal Thing. There is such a thing as the Cal EPA http://www.calepa.ca.gov/ and it is they who visited the midwest and did research on ethanol on behalf of the governor and reported back to him and to CARB (at least I think this was the structure of things but I probably have some of it wrong) as to whether ethanol was the best way to satisfy the oxygenate mandate. There gist of their findings were, I think, that ethanol did help clean air in some ways but not in others, and that from a scientific standpoint there were better less-dated ways to satisfy clean-air goals. I am not voicing agreement, just passing on what I heard. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 Who's Driving Whom? Currently, car manufacturers that distribute in the United States are producing cleaner cars. They have to because the Environmental Protection Agency makes them. By 2003, zero-emission vehicles must make up 10 percent of each major automaker's stock. However, manufacturers apparently aren't required to make these cars entirely available to the public. They only need to meet their quota of zero-emission vehicles. Then dealers get to decide which cars to push, and buyers get to pick the ones they want. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] murky
Right: I found out my filtering also removed a foamy white stuff, leaving the BD clear. - Original Message - From: Paul Gobert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] murky - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] Anyway, I don«t quite understand how filtering removes cloudiness that comes from liquid particles (either water or glycerides). Christian, the material that my filtration removes is more of a white soapy mature than water or glycerides. It looks much the same colour as clean white tallow but it is more uniform in consistency and does not set at room temp. My reaction times were, I admit it, perhaps too short. I mixed four independent 1 liter batches, and they were each left to react for about 30 to 40 minutes. The reaction seemed complete after 10 minutes or so, and I thought 30-40 min would do. In light of what Todd and others have reported I have extended my mixing times. This may improve the clarity of the BD but I think my use of conc aqueous NaOH is a contributing factor. Strangely enough results from a test using varying levels of NaOH, with a fixed level of methanol on the same feedstock, gave clearer unwashed BD for higher levels of NaOH than optimum (titration) or low levels. Viscosity and SG were also lower for high levels of NaOH. These tests bear repeating as the mixing was of short duration. I suspect that optimum mixing would level out the differences. Regards, Paul Gobert. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/02 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biodiesel in nederland colorado?
Yes, It's time. Portfolio: http://www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] biodiesel in nederland colorado? Okay... Is this an obvious declaration of a need to develop a biodieseler's index of small producers? Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
This is a very interesting page with a lot of work behind it. Hadn't really looked at it before except for a couple of biofuels things. What I've been meaning to say about biofuel and inventions and such: The big obstacle I've run into lately in arguing for biofuels or attempting to do so, is the old ethanol takes more BTU to make than it results in argument. Even dismissing Pimentel's stuff, the more mainstream findings, including a paper I tried to quote at DOE, seem to claim that ethanol requires nearly as much energy to make as is put into it in fuel and such. Now, my view is that energy put in can be sustainably made (such as using biodiesel in farm tractors while farming products which go into making biodiesel) and that as we move forward, biofuels will be made more efficiently so that the net energy argument will be less pertinent, even if it will always be somewhat energy-expensive to farm for fuel. But I've been having a tough time on this one sticking point recently, in discussion, and also I've noticed that it's a big point when Senators and Congressmen reject ethanol, such as Feinstein. They imply it's not sustainable and so therefore should not be regarded as a progressive robust domestic energy resource as we search for such things. Further on into the future, I expect that sustainable methods for making various hydrocarbons and alcohols and I-don't-know-what-all will include ways of taking H2 derived from electrolysis and further processing it say with ambient CO2 to make whatever. So what is important is not the bio-derivation, but the more general goal of bringing these processes under the control of man and leaving behind the non-sustainable process of harvesting nature's previous stored bounty. In both cases, making present biofuel production more sustainable-energy-efficient, and making fuels from other sustainable processes, these could qualify as somewhat world-beating advances in our invention-discussion. They are still up against The Oil Companies' worldwide monopoly on distribution of fuels and limitation of many vehicles to not running on most non-fossil fuels (at present). I'm not sure I'd publish or bother with an innovation I made in making a way to make fuel from thin air or what-have-you. But it would be fun to hang out my shingle and start selling fuel and wait for Exxon-Mobil to come by and shut me down, one way or another. Sort of like the Simpsons famous Tomacco episode where they either want to buy him out or do whatever to him. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
Excellent! The luck o the Irish to ya! Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: studio53 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Steve, Found a 99' Jetta TDI for $6900. Needs a couple of front fenders, right side hit, needs a fr/f ront door, but mechanically perfect with 51,ooo miles. I'm I'm going to make the guy an offer tomorrow. Wish me luck. Jesse Portfolio: http://www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Today I test drove a new vw beetle, turbo diesel. Now this is one fine automobile. 44mpg isn't shabby either. saw diesel today for $1.23 / us gallon. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: stewart hyde [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Agreed My 14 year old Citroen BX turbodesel/GTI hybrid Gets 50 mpg (Imperial 4.55 ltr) and runs beautifilly with rapeseed oil @50% fuel extender Stewart from Wales UK where fuel is almost one dollar per litre. - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? I drove a BMW minicooper yesterday, and although it was cute, I would not call 33mpg on premium unleaded clean. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:23 AM Subject: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12917 AlterNet -- So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Allie Gottlieb, Metro Silicon Valley http://www.metroactive.com April 19, 2002 If you're like me, and you are, you want a good, cheap, fast, safe and cute car that can take you to work and back, and out for fun, on little or no gas. You also need room to cart around your laptop, your nonfat latte, a pal and your four-piece silver-sparkle Ludwig drum set, which in my case is named Natasha J. Sparky. Since we've got so much in common, it makes sense to share car-search secrets. I'll start. What I've learned about the latest electric, hybrid and just plain cuter- or cleaner-than-thou vehicles that you can buy or lease at this moment there are plenty of choices, combinations and features. Sorting them all out is confusing but not impossible. The ones accessible to me as of presstime were the BMW Mini Cooper, the Honda Insight, the Honda Civic Hybrid, the Honda Civic GX natural-gas vehicle, the Toyota Prius, the Toyota Rav4 EV, the Corbin Sparrow, the Ford Th!nk, the Ford Ranger EV and the DaimlerChrysler GEM. Idling Politics Here's another thing I've learned. Despite all the chatter about fuel efficiency from the Legislature lately, and the attempts by various cities to get their fleets on a greener track, this has been a slow-going revolution with plenty of setbacks. Witness last month's rise and fall of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards: Senator John Kerry's (D-Mass.) proposal to require new vehicles to average a respectable 36 mpg of gas by 2015 did a giant belly flop. SUVs get to be an estimated 25 percent more polluting than other cars. Gasoline has drivers over an oil barrel, and so, as they do in any time of war with oil-producing nations, gas prices are going up. Despite all this, a good clean car is still
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
On Sun, Apr 28, 2002 at 10:39:30AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The big obstacle I've run into lately in arguing for biofuels or attempting to do so, is the old ethanol takes more BTU to make than it results in argument. Even dismissing Pimentel's stuff, the more mainstream findings, including a paper I tried to quote at DOE, seem to claim that ethanol requires nearly as much energy to make as is put into it in fuel and such. Well, the obvious rebuttal to this is simply: Look at Brazil. And, of course, we seem to have a major problem in the US with both ethanol and biodiesel because of the farmer/welfare lobby, which has created mountains of cheap corn and soybeans, so both those farmers and the know-nothings in government keep pushing biofuels made from them. In reality we know that those are lousy choices for biofuel feedstocks in the first place. Corn based ethanol is viable *only* because of the crop price supports -- but that's totally irrelevant, for one, because until we are able to kill off all that corporate welfare, ethanol will be produced from corn and profitably for someone. Heck, right now corn is the cheapest heating fuel available by a long shot. But all those arguments are simply ridiculous. Why even bother with corn or soybeans? Other than they don't know what else to do with them, I mean. There are a multitude of fantasiccally better crops for both ethanol and biodiesel. Does Brazil grow corn for ethanol? Of course not. Why should we? How about sorghum, sugar beets, or, best of all, cattails? Don't waste your breath arguing for corn/ethanol. The morons/thieves in government, and the welfare parasite farmers could care less about reality, they just want to continue with their disgusting symbiotic relationship. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Hi again m65 Please forgive my cynicism, but it's also very possible the inventor would be worse than broke, and possibly in jail. As soon as this wonderful machine made it to market, the Big Energy Corps would have their own version, with a slight change made and patented, and would have you in Court for Patent infringement until your legal bills are so high your grandchildren won't be able to pay them off. The fact that you were the original inventor of the concept would be of no consequence to them. Motie I don't think you're a cynic. I bend it a bit probably, but to me a cynic believes in human frailty, and generally it's more than just belief, it's behaviour - manipulating human frailty for your own gain, battening on it. You're a sceptic, but that's healthy, not manipulative, and probably essential to survival. Anyway, whichever, as I said to m65, and keep saying, you have to distinguish between humans, frail or otherwise, and society's institutions, which are another matter altogether. But again, I think you do, and it's the institutions you're talking of here. All this linguistics and philosophy not withstanding, and however pertinent, I think motie hit the nail right on the head. It's one of the most pertinent things I know - the difference, that is, between people and their institutions, and the way people are blind to that (but the institutions aren't). Someone please explain to me why, in America and now elsewhere, corporations have more human rights than humans do? And who's going to clean up the mess? I'm not sure that's what would actually would happen, but I definitely think that in many cases if an invention is judged somewhat desireable, it is a repugant part of 21st century business strategy to copy it (illegally) and modify it and patent the modified version so as to bring action against the original. That's true, but there are other possibilities, other nails to hit, maybe other ways to hit them. Now, a further thought in response to your allusions to what you would do, and probably are doing to some extent, is fine, that sounds like a plan. Better than no plan, modified in response to what you found wouldn't work, etc. And also what did work, more so I think. We'll certainly try. A few points: to me inventors and proponents of this or that energy solution lose some credibility when they speak of this or that energy solution as *the* solution. Yes - some or all. Either naive or Dennis Lee, eh? There is no such thing in a competitive economy, if only because there is more than one way to skin a cat. Nor in any economy. Biofuel proponents, inventors of terrific new battery solutions, inventors of great schemes to harvest wind, solar, geothermal, wave, tidal (not the same thing as wave) energy, inventors of ways to make nuclear dramatically safer, inventors of seemingly mundane doodads to make cars more efficient and thus really make a contribution: to the extent that their inventions are real and will do what they will say, they have a part-answer to that aspect of our lives which requires energy. But none of them, not a single one, has an invention which is so dramatic that it should be regarded as the be-all end-all. 'Usually the answer is in a mix of technologies. Biofuels can be used to power small-scale farm and workshop machinery and electricity generators as well as local vehicles. Knowing how to make them provides a useful set of ecological questions in investigating local energy options which makes it more than worthwhile even if the final answer is No.' http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html (Ecological here doesn't mean environmental, it includes the community, the local economy and all other factors - the only law of ecology, if any, is that everything is connected to everything else.) Even a fictitious Galtian device which easily harvested enough atmospheric static electricity to power most needs all inventions have a place and are not the only thing around. For one thing they each can be categorized (primary energy source, intermediary transportation-energy-storage, UPS, more-effecient-conversion, etc. To point out this diversity is to show respect for the reality both good and bad of each invention. Indeed yes, they have a place. I tend to think the place is a lot more important than the technology, and each place is different. So the mistake lies in focusing on the technology, looking for some ideal technology. That's trying to find the answer to a question that doesn't exist in the practical world. My view on this comes from working in Third World rural development. Fitting the circumstances to the technology - fitting the problem to the solution - has broken a lot of people's rice bowls, and more than that, and if anybody actually does get helped it's too often those who were causing the problem in the first place. There is no best technology. What's best is a wide range of options,
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
The energy efficiency numbers don't make a lot of sense. They make no sense if you apply them to energy provision on an integrated farm, or a cooperative of integrated farms, or to a community associated with such a cooperative or cooperatives. To begin with the fossil-fuel inputs in raising the crop(s) can virtually vanish, and the crop might actually be just a by-product, or indeed crop wastes. No two farms would do it quite the same way, and no farm quite the same way two years running. And the closer you look, and the smaller the localities you choose, the greater become the feedstock options and the efficiencies available. People like David Morris and the ILSR, the Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse and Sustainable Minnesota do good work with these issues, but people don't want to listen. Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ceic/Search2/search.cfm Sustainable Minnesota's Biofuels Resources http://www.me3.org/issues/ethanol This is a very interesting page with a lot of work behind it. Hadn't really looked at it before except for a couple of biofuels things. I'm glad you like it. What I've been meaning to say about biofuel and inventions and such: The big obstacle I've run into lately in arguing for biofuels or attempting to do so, is the old ethanol takes more BTU to make than it results in argument. Even dismissing Pimentel's stuff, the more mainstream findings, including a paper I tried to quote at DOE, seem to claim that ethanol requires nearly as much energy to make as is put into it in fuel and such. Now, my view is that energy put in can be sustainably made (such as using biodiesel in farm tractors while farming products which go into making biodiesel) and that as we move forward, biofuels will be made more efficiently so that the net energy argument will be less pertinent, even if it will always be somewhat energy-expensive to farm for fuel. But I've been having a tough time on this one sticking point recently, in discussion, and also I've noticed that it's a big point when Senators and Congressmen reject ethanol, such as Feinstein. They imply it's not sustainable and so therefore should not be regarded as a progressive robust domestic energy resource as we search for such things. Further on into the future, I expect that sustainable methods for making various hydrocarbons and alcohols and I-don't-know-what-all will include ways of taking H2 derived from electrolysis and further processing it say with ambient CO2 to make whatever. So what is important is not the bio-derivation, but the more general goal of bringing these processes under the control of man and leaving behind the non-sustainable process of harvesting nature's previous stored bounty. In both cases, making present biofuel production more sustainable-energy-efficient, and making fuels from other sustainable processes, these could qualify as somewhat world-beating advances in our invention-discussion. They are still up against The Oil Companies' worldwide monopoly on distribution of fuels and limitation of many vehicles to not running on most non-fossil fuels (at present). I'm not sure I'd publish or bother with an innovation I made in making a way to make fuel from thin air or what-have-you. But it would be fun to hang out my shingle and start selling fuel and wait for Exxon-Mobil to come by and shut me down, one way or another. Sort of like the Simpsons famous Tomacco episode where they either want to buy him out or do whatever to him. Possible this is now beginning to happen with biofuels in the US. Fuel ethanol is still well under conmtrol, as you pointed out, and maybe the little guy is about to get shoved aside by Big Soy as they move in and take over. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You?
Steve, Found a 99' Jetta TDI for $6900. Needs a couple of front fenders, right side hit, needs a fr/f ront door, but mechanically perfect with 51,ooo miles. I'm I'm going to make the guy an offer tomorrow. Wish me luck. Jesse I'll wish you luck, Jesse. Let us know, eh? BEST OF GOOD LUCK! regards Keith Portfolio: http://www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Today I test drove a new vw beetle, turbo diesel. Now this is one fine automobile. 44mpg isn't shabby either. saw diesel today for $1.23 / us gallon. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: stewart hyde [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? Agreed My 14 year old Citroen BX turbodesel/GTI hybrid Gets 50 mpg (Imperial 4.55 ltr) and runs beautifilly with rapeseed oil @50% fuel extender Stewart from Wales UK where fuel is almost one dollar per litre. - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] So, You Want to Buy a Green Car ... Or Do You? I drove a BMW minicooper yesterday, and although it was cute, I would not call 33mpg on premium unleaded clean. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
What has particularly ticked me off in recent years is to see the Auto companies, which are *not* oil companies though they may have ties, working so needlessly against another big non-fossil-fuel which is electricity. Ridiculous and dramatically anti-patriotic. Patriotic? The auto companies? Oil companies? Why would you expect them to be patriotic? Or unpatriotic? What do you think of this? http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm?ID=4190 Tompaine.com has excellent articles and this was one of them, but it does not change my expectations at all. I don't particularly expect a company, in the end, to extend more than modest patriotism (for self-interest, for PR, for morale, etc.), but I expect that, if they cash in on Patriotism through marketing in a huge way, then they can be held more accountable for their behaviour in the court of public opinion...they are more vulnerable to criticism even if its association to the bottom line is murky... than your average-everyday-company if it is specifically contrary to U.S. interests. The behaviour of all three Detroit automakers is disgusting, with respect to progressive vehicles in general. With respect to this tax issue, I'm not sure I blame them exactly so much as I had already written them off. They're not an American company. They haven't been for some years. The previous management of Chrysler saw to that. I think more than tax issues were probably at stake. I can't recall the last time I gave much thought to Chrysler at all except on the level of seeing them as a foreign maker (though I was making an assumption that I didn't know was true). Chrysler Opted Out Of Taxes Adapted From The Book, The Cheating Of America Very unpatriotic. But if a crocodile ripped your leg off, would you criticise it for its bad table manners? Just acting naturally. Corporations will be patriotic, and spend good PR dollars telling you all about it, if it has anything to do with the bottom line. Cynical? How can you be cynical about a corporation? There were corporations that were born in Hong Kong, that grew up there, were the backbone of the place, that lived and rejoiced and suffered with Hong Kong, that _were_ Hong Kong. They were patriotic, of course, always good corporate citizens. But meanwhile they became global corporations too, and as 1997 approached, along with China, and Britain's departure, they simply moved out, without a care. Care? How would a corporation care? Before someone hits me for being anti-corporations and informs me that not all corporations are bad, I'm not anti-corporations (though I'm most certainly anti some of them), and I don't think they're bad or good, they're just corporations, acting naturally. If we let them get away with this stuff, then they will, if it's good for their bottom line, and they'll spend a lot of money and resources trying to talk us into letting them do that, rather successfully, and that's also just acting naturally. What I am against is people thinking they're human, because they're not even remotely human, they have no human feelings, morals mean nothing to them, they're not bounded by human limitations. Only the bottom line. That's their nature. They are NOT simply a collective of the people who work for them, that has almost nothing to do with it. Interesting concepts, but you're repeating yourself. You seem intent on criticizing what you perceive as the anthropomorphic rhetoric I use, but you don't allow me any place to make any criticisms of anything. You are mistaken somewhat about what I am thinking. I don't need to have Patriotic expectations of a corporation as I would an indvidiual to get upset with them or to criticize them on those grounds. The criticism doesn't reflect that I expect the same things from them as I do from individuals. I don't like being lied-to, by an individual or by a corporation. I will say so if it happens. The Detroit automakers have lied incessantly about all manner of alternative fuel related issues. I don't expect otherwise. What I expect to be different is to expose the lie more clearly. As to expecting unusual levels of patriotism, I don't. I do expect to make it dramatically more difficult for them to cash in on their little PR bank accounts the next time they go to start a Heartbeat of America campaign. Have a look at this (scroll down a bit): http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1746list=BIOFUEL I'll have to look later, that's too much reading you're throwing at me. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
[biofuel] moveon.org
Have you guys seen this? http://www.moveon.org/saveGM/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Results on Revised 2 Stage Acid/Base Method
Ken, We're in kind of the same boat as yourself. We've got a little over 100 gallons of hemp oil FFAs from the ~1,200 gallons of oil processed last summer. As the stuff is a little out of the ordinary, we're not going to have much problem getting rid of it as an ingredient in all veggie bio-candles. The problem's going to be when we start producing WVOon a larger scale. I'm processing a liter of the glycerin that was recovered from last week's acid/base reactions as I write this, treating it with phosphoric 5ml at a time until no more precipitate forms (potassium phosphate). I'm hoping that no or almost no FFAs come out of solution. First guess is that the glycerin from an acid/base is going to be considerably darker than glycerin recovered from a straight base reaction, as most of the colorant goes with the FFAs when it separates. If there are considerably less FFAs in the glycerin layer of an acid/base, it stands to reason that the glycerin will be darker. Then what to do with it? It's going to be considerably less appealing in that state than the hemp glycerin. I suppose you could always use your FFAs to fuel an evaporation/distillation unit for the glycerinlose one co-product but refine another. Anyway, none of this is exactly textbook chemistry at the moment, as most of the equipment is down the road in the chemist's lab. Just trying to get on a track that he can pursue to the infinite degree . We'll see... Todd - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Results on Revised 2 Stage Acid/Base Method Todd wrote: An acid/base requires no titration I think Aleks' method is good up to about 8% FFA in the oil -- at that level, you're right, titration is unnecessary. I tried some 16% FFA oil (titrates at 21 ml NaOH!), and titration after the acid step indicated I still had 5% FFA left, way too much for his base step to work with the stated proportions. Okay...so you have to reprocess 30% of your original 100% FFAs. Are you not already 70% ahead of the game? Yes and no -- the problem is separating the ester from the unconverted FFA. If you start with oil containing 8% FFA and end up with 2% FFA, that's not too much soap to deal with in the base step. But starting with 100% FFA, and trying to wash out 30% of it as soap is another story In the meantime, however, I have to askIf what you are trying to convert to esters are 100% FFAsdo you really see any need to go into a base stage? SOME kind of base stage is necessary to separate the ester from the unconverted FFAs, even if it's just a neutralizing step (much like caustic refining) to wash out the FFAs as soap. The idea of using clean oil to dilute the FFAs and processing the whole thing with a 2-step is just one idea. My best guess under such circumstances is that you would be better off switching to an acid/base method and not accumulating recovered FFAs in such high quantities in the first place. That's the idea of diluting the FFAs with clean oil, but if 8% is the most I can put in a batch, it doesn't help much. Again, for a little background, the only reason I have free FFA lying around at all is that I clean it out of the recovered glycerine phase before neutralizing and composting (or flushing). The FFA (or soap) is, I think, too nasty to dispose of that way. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please forgive my cynicism, but it's also very possible the inventor would be worse than broke, and possibly in jail. As soon as this wonderful machine made it to market, the Big Energy Corps would have their own version, with a slight change made and patented, and would have you in Court for Patent infringement until your legal bills are so high your grandchildren won't be able to pay them off. The fact that you were the original inventor of the concept would be of no consequence to them. Motie I don't think you're a cynic. I bend it a bit probably, but to me a cynic believes in human frailty, and generally it's more than just belief, it's behaviour - manipulating human frailty for your own gain, battening on it. You're a sceptic, but that's healthy, not manipulative, and probably essential to survival. Anyway, whichever, as I said to m65, and keep saying, you have to distinguish between humans, frail or otherwise, and society's institutions, which are another matter altogether. But again, I think you do, and it's the institutions you're talking of here. All this linguistics and philosophy not withstanding, and however pertinent, I think motie hit the nail right on the head. I'm not sure that's what would actually would happen, but I definitely think that in many cases if an invention is judged somewhat desireable, it is a repugant part of 21st century business strategy to copy it (illegally) and modify it and patent the modified version so as to bring action against the original. I am currently involved in a situation much like what I described above. I did my research into the various possibilities and probabilities, and decided NOT to file a Patent on my concept. If I were to file for a Patet, I have to make all my proprietary info available to those hwo can't/won't do their own research, or have an original thought. I tried to side-step that can of worms by keeping it proprietary. A certain amount of info has to be disclosed in order to get various and sundry Permits required. Word inevitably leaked out about what I was attempting to do, and got the interest of someone (s) in high places. 'They' still don't know the details of my concept, but I am at a total standstill to proceed. Trying to get various Permits now, is like trying to get Hillary's Billing Records from her. I am stonewalled at every turn by people who were enthusiastic supporters. An offer was made by an 'undisclosed party' to 'help' me through the hurdles. I don't know who the 'undisclosed party' is, but I have a very strong suspicion. I also strongly suspect it is the same party who has put the hurdles in place, from behind the scenes. The terms of the offer are absolutely unacceptable to me. I have promised to post all my info in the Public Domain before I will turn it over to the 'undisclosed party'. From my point of view, it's a hijacking of my work. I flatly refuse to disclose it to the 'undisclosed party' involved, under the terms offered. Basically, I would be an uncompensated Employee, with NO compensation for the 3 years (and $200,000)I spent working out the details. I had experts in several different fields working with me to perfect the details. I kept a very low profile, until I had it ready to initiate. Now that my project has come to the attention of the Big Guys, I can't proceed. My situation is not much unlike that of Yellow Biodiesel. The latest 'hurdle' that has been thrown up, is an 'Engineering Study' that will cost $6M. I don't have $6M to pay an Engineer to do an independant study, and I would have to disclose too much proprietary info, for it to be valid. All the individual components have already been proven to work. The basic Engineering has already been done, and is proprietary information. The only additional Engineering actually needed will be when the actual Blueprints are drawn up, to figure out which pipe needs to go where. Financing has already been arranged for that. I'm also sure that if I could find a backer for that amount, there will be another hurdle beyond this one. I'm in a holding pattern now, until after the elections. Depending on the outcome, I'll determine how to proceed from there. Until I get this resolved, I am working on other interests on a MUCH smaller scale, and self-financed. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] moveon.org
murdoch wrote: Have you guys seen this? http://www.moveon.org/saveGM/ Thank you murdoch! It seems to tie in how US manufactories are going to compete for market share with others Hybrid Electric Vehicle demand. Listed HEV trucks from GM and Chrysler seem minimal. Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Hybrids http://cartalk.cars.com/info/hybrid/ What's Available? It seems to me Toyota will benefit. Subject: [biofuel] Toyota to supply hybrids to other automakers Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/15654/story.htm Planet Ark : INTERVIEW - Toyota to supply hybrids to other automakers Thank you Keith! It sounds (seems) like oil prices or demand have to increase to keep up with monetary demand in the next Persian Gulf - the Caspian Sea Basin. Maybe thats why US CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) Standards where over looked. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Results on Revised 2 Stage Acid/Base Method
Yes, I suppose hemp FFAs would have a certain cachet that fryer grease FFAs would lack... But the idea of burning 'em for process heat is a good one -- just like WVO in a burner, but without the acroleinAnyway, I'm gonna pass on making biodiesel out of it for now. I've started playing with soapmaking, and maybe I'll burn the rest. I see on Google it makes a good dust supressant for dirt roads..-K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
