Re: [biofuels-biz] Suppliers?
Keith; Let me say that you are doing a fine job on promoting Bio diesel, so don't let anyone put you down. Now to the point, we all would like to see a list of producers in the USA as well as the whole world, it sounds like a big project but it could be done. What information should be included in this list and do you want to list it as it grows. We here in southeast Minnesota have been producing for the last 3 years and last year got to the point of making 150 gallons in each batch. This is just for our own use at this time, stocking up for a rainy day you could say. Keep up the good work. Robert Piepenhagen aka BioBob Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Anyone in similar position?
Hello all I've been a subscriber to this excellent group for over a year now and this is the first post that I've placed, so I hope someone can help. I used to operate a Real Ale microbrewery in my town for a number of years before giving up due to pressure from Duty payments and the 'Big Breweries' in relation to my profit. I now have a redundant brewery that I believe is perfect for conversion to biodiesel manufacturing plant. This consists of 5x 180 gallon food grade stainless steel Grundy tanks. Is there any other person or group out there who has any past experience or knowledge in this type of plant conversion who can assist in any way? Absolutely any input will be appreciated. Best regards Steve Madley Delicate Essence Scotland U.K. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Anyone in similar position?
I don't know about biodiesel, but I have heard of decommissioned breweries converting to fuel ethanol production. Steve Madley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/30/2002 01:01 PM Please respond to biofuels-biz To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:[biofuels-biz] Anyone in similar position? Hello all I've been a subscriber to this excellent group for over a year now and this is the first post that I've placed, so I hope someone can help. I used to operate a Real Ale microbrewery in my town for a number of years before giving up due to pressure from Duty payments and the 'Big Breweries' in relation to my profit. I now have a redundant brewery that I believe is perfect for conversion to biodiesel manufacturing plant. This consists of 5x 180 gallon food grade stainless steel Grundy tanks. Is there any other person or group out there who has any past experience or knowledge in this type of plant conversion who can assist in any way? Absolutely any input will be appreciated. Best regards Steve Madley Delicate Essence Scotland U.K. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Biodiesel Bulletin
From: National Biodiesel Board [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newsletter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Biodiesel Bulletin Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:40:50 -0500 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BIODIESEL BULLETIN A Monthly Newsletter of the National Biodiesel Board April 30, 2002 HEADLINES: SENATE APPROVES ENERGY BILL WITH BIODIESEL PROVISIONS METZ TALKS BIODIESEL WITH PRESIDENT BUSH ASTM ISSUES BIODIESEL FUEL STANDARD BOISE BUSES AND GARBAGE TRUCKS TO RUN ON BIODIESEL NATIONAL AFV ODYSSEY DAY FEATURES BIODIESEL FARM BILL ENERGY TITLE GIVES BOOST TO BIODIESEL SENATE APPROVES ENERGY BILL WITH BIODIESEL PROVISIONS On April 25, the U.S. Senate approved the Senate Energy Bill, S. 517 by a vote of 88 ö 11. The bill includes multiple provisions that will help level the playing field for biodiesel in the highly competitive energy marketplace. Those provisions are: Biodiesel Excise Tax Incentive ÷ S. 517 would provide blenders of biodiesel with a 1-cent reduction in the diesel excise tax for every percentage of biodiesel made from virgin vegetable oil that is blended with diesel up to 20 percent of total content. The legislation is specific to vegetable oil-based biodiesel and would reimburse the Federal Highway Trust Fund through the U.S. Department of Agricultureâs Commodity Credit Corporation. Blenders tax credit ÷ S. 517 also offers a half cent per percent up to 20 percent tax credit for biodiesel made from recycled oils and animal fats. Senators Max Baucus (D-MT) and Grassley sponsored the amendment. Renewable Fuels Standard ÷ Under S. 517, biodiesel is an eligible fuel to help the nation meet a new 5 billion gallon renewable fuels standard set in the legislation. The renewable fuels standard is similar to legislation introduced by Senators Chuck Hagel (R-NE) and Tim Johnson (D-SD). Removal of 50% Biodiesel Limit in EPAct ÷ S. 517 amended the Energy Policy Act of 1992 (EPAct) to encourage government fleets to use more biodiesel to meet current energy requirements. Senators Kit Bond (R-MO) and Blanch Lincoln (D-AR) authored the amendment in S. 517 to remove the 50 percent limit on biodiesel use for government fleets. Federal Fleet Use ÷ The legislation requires federal government fleets to use biodiesel and ethanol when they are cost competitive. Senators Mark Dayton (D-MN) and Grassley supported the measure. The U.S. House of Representatives approved their Energy Bill, H.R. 4, in 2001. However, none of these biodiesel provisions was included in H.R. 4. The differences between H.R. 4 and S. 517 will soon be reconciled in a joint House/Senate Conference Committee. ãWe look forward to similar support in the House of Representatives and seeing the President sign it into law,ä Metz said. ãMy son is coming back to the farm and will be a sixth generation farmer. I think what happens with this energy bill is crucial to a long-term solution for ag surplus and to the success of the next generation of farmers.ä METZ TALKS BIODIESEL WITH PRESIDENT BUSH National Biodiesel Board (NBB) President and American Soybean Association (ASA) board member Bob Metz, from South Dakota, represented soybean producers in a roundtable meeting with President George Bush in Wentworth, S.D. this month. The President stopped in Wentworth to visit an ethanol plant. Metz was one of about a dozen agriculture representatives who took part in the meeting, where he had the opportunity to talk with the President about the biodiesel tax incentive and the renewable fuels standard. I was very heartened to hear that he does not see this as strictly an ag issue, Metz said. He truly sees this as an opportunity to replace Middle East oil with renewable fuels from the United States. Metz said the President indicated that the quicker we can use renewable fuels from the United States the better off the United States will be. The President told Metz that he will do what he can in Washington. Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman also participated in the roundtable meeting and mentioned to the President that Metz had driven her in the Missouri Soybean Associationâs biodiesel pickup truck while it was in Washington at the end of its 10-year anniversary tour from Jefferson City, Missouri to the U.S. Capitol. ASTM ISSUES BIODIESEL FUEL STANDARD The premier standard-setting organization in the United States has issued a fuel specification for biodiesel. The American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM) issued Specification D 6751 for all biodiesel fuel bought and sold in the U.S., marking a major milestone for the biodiesel industry. Now that the full standard is in place, it sets the bar for all biodiesel production, said Steve Howell, Chairman of the ASTM Biodiesel Standards Task Force. It will help protect consumers from poor products and reduce the cost of buying and selling biodiesel. While many adopted the provisional specification in 1999 (PS 121), those that didn't had to negotiate a specification. With the final passage of D 6751, they
Re: [biofuels-biz] Suppliers?
Thankyou Tom. No raw nerves or paranoia though, but thanks for the apology. Peace, and good luck. Regards Keith Wow, looks like I scraped a nerve rather raw. My sincere apologies. Its probably something like your experience to work very hard to do something and to be overlooked, checked and dismissed. Makes me paranoid. But, please note that you, Keith, have been outstanding in your support for my fight with the EPA. Despite my rather shabby slight against your web site, I really do appreciate all you are doing. Again, apologies offered. I don't think I will ask you to do much to list my product. I can only barely meet the local demand for biodiesel degreaser, and now it looks like I will not be continually expanding this production system. I will be coy and say that there is a good chance that within a few weeks I will announce a far grander production system in the region. This new producer will be ASTM certified and a significant player in the northeast biodiesel production system. I'll keep you informed. Tom Leue In a message dated 4/29/02 2:09:12 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tom Leue wrote: Reports of the death of Homestead Inc. and the cessation of Yellow Brand PREMIUM Biodiesel have been greatly exaggerated. I am sorry that your web listing no longer includes the quality product I produce, if it ever did include my production. No it never did. By the time I heard of it you were talking of being closed down, and gave no news of any further production. Your list would be far more helpful to the public if it were trying to be comprehensive, rather than just the good old boys in the NBB. Well, why the hell do you think I asked?? Sheesh! I've got an amazing record of supporting the NBB against the interests of small producers, eh? Including you! Do you want me to spell it out here? After you first posted your message about the EPA hassle you were having here I spread it all over the place, got the debate going wherever I could, steered it where I could, fed it any info I could find that seemed relevant, spent a lot of time fighting over it when it got hijacked by trolls at the Biofuel list, then, on request, I set up a special closed group for you and a few others to deal with the problem, put a lot of time into administering that and trying to make it more useful. I push the interests and value of small biodiesel producers as against big producers wherever I can. I doubt anyone has done so more than I have. And why should I care? I'm not involved, I have no interest in what goes on in the US or other industrialised countries, with biodiesel or anything else. Some remote village in Nepal or Tanzania where the average citizen uses 1/155th of the energy per capita that the average American uses, and probably to better effect and with less harm, yes, that I'm interested in. So don't give me a hard time, eh? Please, somebody with a bit of objectivity, go to this page and tell us if all it does is push the good old boys in the NBB - and you may notice while you're there that the good old US of A doesn't quite yet cover the entire surface of Planet Earth, though it seems it's trying to. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html Biofuels supplies and suppliers Homestead Inc. now sells Yellow brand Biodiesel Degreaser. This product is effective in parts washing machines and other cleaning chores. It is non-volatile, wonderfully effective either warm or cold, non-toxic, and can be safely disposed of in any waste oil burner, making the other oil even burn cleaner! Yellow Biodiesel Degreaser is available daily at Homestead Inc. in Ashfield, MA. Call 800 285-4533 (or 413 628-4533) for availability and sales information. Current prices is $2,40 per gallon, or in a handy, recycled, 5 gallon package for $13.00 I'm happy to know that. So you want me to give you some free advertising in quite the best place for it on the Web, that big companies offer me lots of money for but get turned down if I don't think their products make it (and if they do make it their money gets refused anyway), for me to spend time writing an entry for you, then changing that page and uploading the new version... Sorry, maybe you've caught me on a bad day or something, but try asking nicely and I might get round to it sometime. Keith Addison Tom Leue Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Suppliers?
Hello Robert Keith; Let me say that you are doing a fine job on promoting Bio diesel, so don't let anyone put you down. Thankyou! We do try. Now to the point, we all would like to see a list of producers in the USA as well as the whole world, it sounds like a big project but it could be done. What information should be included in this list and do you want to list it as it grows. We here in southeast Minnesota have been producing for the last 3 years and last year got to the point of making 150 gallons in each batch. This is just for our own use at this time, stocking up for a rainy day you could say. Keep up the good work. I'm not sure that I can Robert, we're as overstretched as all hell right now - 18/7 and we can't keep up. I'd no sooner posted that message (below) when I had second thoughts about it. Yes, I guess it could be done, but as you say, it's a big project. And we're 12,000 miles away, it's not that easy. And really, as I said, our main orientation is not to the US, important as it is. We're Third Worlders, that's our focus. I got a note from Martin, who runs the new list archives and much besides, here: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Info-Archive at NNYTech He'd be interested in setting up a page where people could register themselves as small biofuel producers - ethanol/biodiesel/etc, sorted by country/state. I said I thought it would be difficult to maintain, and I doubted that people would maintain it themselves. But I think that's the only way. Maybe I was being a bit too sceptical, in the circumstances. That's what Terry's done for the UK: www.ukbiodiesel.biz LINKS TO UK SUPPLIERS (by region) Any thoughts, anyone? It would be useful, eh? Even more useful if it included local workshops, local homebrewers' groups, even individual biofuellers, to help people form networks. But I think it'll have to be a group effort, D-I-Y. I'll try to help, others too I'm sure. Needs some discussion, those who'll do the work need some input and encouragement. I'll cc this to the Biofuel list, see what happens. Thanks again Robert. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Robert Piepenhagen aka BioBob Previous message: Okay... Is this an obvious declaration of a need to develop a biodieseler's index of small producers? Todd Swearingen Yes. We have suppliers listed at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html Biofuels supplies and suppliers And much besides, we don't get to hear of small producers, and we're much more interested in them anyway. I'd love to be able to offer a list of small producers, local producers, coops etc. Also local groups, local workshops, local what have you. Just send me the info, please, and I'll upload it and announce it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Hello George Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background: http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015c=1s=greider The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233 Trading Democracy - January 15, 2002 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli nes-business Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.) Best Keith I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE. This was a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought ethanol to meet needs. Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada than ethanol from the Midwest. Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state. If plants to produce MTBE can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol plants. California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so apparently they have cows. If they have cows then they should have some cow feed, right. That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol. Or maybe a little closer to the truth. Everybody knows that the American government is in bed with big oil. Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans. The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians. I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Hi Jesse I'm in Chapter one of Seven Sister, the book about the oil companies. It is riveting! Finally the real history of how far the government is up big oil's smoke stack. Indeed yes. It was a pity leaving out the earlier chapters with what I've been sending the list, it's all a real eye-opener, but I wanted to focus on OPEC. It's such a knee-jerk response to blame everything on OPEC, especially in the US, and that's just not the way it is. A well-spun scapegoat is OPEC, and I think that's making a lot of very iffy to downright dangerous things a lot easier than they should be right now. I'm scanning one more chapter today, the second-last one, and I reckon that'll be it. Best Keith Portfolio: http://www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 11:32 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE. This was a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought ethanol to meet needs. Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada than ethanol from the Midwest. Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state. If plants to produce MTBE can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol plants. California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so apparently they have cows. If they have cows then they should have some cow feed, right. That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol. Or maybe a little closer to the truth. Everybody knows that the American government is in bed with big oil. Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans. The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians. I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Yeah. Cost me $11 but it is worth it. Jess Portfolio: http://www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again Hi Jesse I'm in Chapter one of Seven Sister, the book about the oil companies. It is riveting! Finally the real history of how far the government is up big oil's smoke stack. Indeed yes. It was a pity leaving out the earlier chapters with what I've been sending the list,and get with the program... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] acid catalyzed ... cont...
Thanks Todd, Ken, Jim, and - hey, just about everybody! You educate me, and I'm deeply grateful. Regards Keith Keith, From my perspective, recovery of MeOH is best done at two different stages. The first would be from the ester, after the glycerin has settled, while the fuel is still warm to save energy inputs. The second would be from the glycerin, after the catalyst has been precipitated out, as the alcohol makes the glycerin considerably less viscous which aids in quick and condensed precipitation of the salt. At that point, where the catalyst has precipated out in the form of a salt, the glycerin also separates from of the FFAs - three layers - precipitate, glycerin and FFAs. This can easily be done while still warm after settling out of the base transesterification stage. From here, the alcohol can be recovered from each layer independently, so as to not get the glycerin and the FFAs mixed again. Were alcohol to be recovered from both fluids at the same time (a homogenous mixture of glycerin and FFAs) it is doubtfult that the glycerin would settle out quite as readily or that as great a percentage of FFAs would again separate to the surface, due primarily to the greater viscosity of the now alcohol free environment, in comparison to the more fluid environment where alcohol was present. ... As for the benefits of knowing the saponification value of oils...this might shed a little light. Sap values found in print are generally the amount of KOH required to convert an oil entirely into soap, based upon weight of the oil, not volume. (The molecular wait of NaOH to KOH, respectively is 40.0 - 56.1, meaning that more weight of KOH is required to achieve the same effect as with NaOH - 56.1 grams of pure KOH = 40 grams of pure NaOH.) Biodieselers only want to know how much catalyst it will take to compensate for the FFAs, which are only a fraction of the oil's content. Transfering that kind of data into a transesterification correlation, it takes 192.80 grams of KOH (137.47 grams NaOH) to completely saponify 1# of hemp seed oil. That would equate to approximately 1,100 grams of NaOH per gallon of oil. However, in a straight base reaction, it only takes ~32 grams of NaOH to convert one gallon of hemp seed oil to methyl ester - enough catalyst to counter the oil's FFA content with 3.5 grams / liter of oil remaining for the transesterification. Knowing how soap is made is of value to a biodieseler in many respects. But sap values don't have a direct correlation to transesterification values. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] acid catalyzed ... cont... Hello Todd, Jim, Ken and all Jim, Phosphoric would be used as a wash neutralizer and a precipitator when recovering the base from the glycerin. I tend to believe that Aleks is correct when he says that phosphoric won't work in the acid stage. My first guess on the matter is that the sulfuric in concentrated form of 95%-98% has less water than the 85% phosphoric which is most common. By introducing less water, there will inevitably be less soap creation, erego higher yields using one over the other. But the thought of precipitating out the caustic prior to composting is of great value, with the water soluble fertilizer being useable in a yard or field environment. Now, if someone would just design a rather cost effective, simple and Underwriters Laboratories safe, shadetree thin film evaporation/distillation unit to recover the methanol, homebrew will have closed the loop in the waste stream. Todd Swearingen Why not recover the methanol at the end of the processing stage, before settling? Still warm, it's all there, so just heat it up a bit more (to 65 deg C) and distill it off through a simple condenser. Isn't that what most people are doing who're recovering their methanol? And, um, sorry to nag, but any feedback on this below, posted earlier in this thread? Different fats and oils all have different saponification numbers, and if you're making soap you need to know what they are to calculate the right amount of lye. But we just use 3.5g plus whatever titration says (and it seems to say various things), titrating to pH8.5, mix it up, chuck it in and go, no matter what kind of oil it is. That 3.5g figure for virgin oil (of whatever ilk) isn't precise, it varies between 3.1 and 3.5, which makes for quite a big potential error, especially with high FFA oils, where it counts more. Could these saponification numbers be used to correct the basic 3.1-3.5g figure? Thanks! Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] RE: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Tell me about that! How can we retain jobs here if we have everything in Wal Mart and such big stores (even small ones) have Made in China. GO and check Wal-Mart and try to find one thing made in USA. BUYER, BEWARE! Your Job is at stake! - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:52 AM Subject: [biofuel] RE: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again I was thinking. If we lose that many jobs whenever we buy foreign products, what does that say about buying everything electronic from (made in)china?? Maybe. Or the millions of Cars we buy from Germany and Japan (or Korea for that matter)?? Maybe not - Alan Petrillo posted an article a while back about car companies merging, which showed that some of the foreign cars are more American than the American cars. Chrysler was recently bought out from Daimiler-Benz wasn't it?? The U.S. tax system puts global companies at a decisive disadvantage, John Loffredo, the vice president and chief tax counsel for Chrysler and its successor, DaimlerChrysler, told a hearing of the House Ways and Means Committee on June 30, 1999, just 20 years after his predecessors had gone, hat in hand, to beg Congress for a bailout. This issue became a major concern and when the time came to choose whether the new company should be a U.S. company or a foreign company, management chose a company organized under the laws of Germany. http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm?ID=4190 Chrysler Opted Out Of Taxes Adapted From The Book, The Cheating Of America Have you opened up a subject that could be expanded to other things?? But I think it's not so simple. Best Keith Thanks for getting me thinking!! Curtis --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] what could it be?
After settling my glycerin, I decided to wash and neutraliza it. I first used vinegar, but noticed the pH level whent down very slowly, and I was rather diluting the glyc with too much water from the vinegar acetic acid solution. So I reached for the HCl 35% (muriatic) acid. pH started going upwards, say, 1 pH level per 2 ml (very roughly from what I can recall). I was also heating to remove the excess methanol. We know that any NaOH will react with vinegar (CH3COOH) to form CH3COONa (a salt) + water. with HCl, the reaction forms table salt (NaCl) and water, and table salt wouldn«t represent a problem if I were to use the glycerin as a soap... so: I continued adding HCl, until suddenly the pH whent down drastically, sort of as in a buffer effect. This is quite possible, as a buffer solution isone which will tend to maintain a certain pH for a given ammount of acid or base added. These can be made from a) a weak acid and an ionic soluble salt of the weak acid, or b) a weak base and a soluble ionic salt of the weak base. For example, CH3COOH (acetic acid) and CH3COOH. So I suddenly forced pH too low, but in the meantime, big flocks of something like waxes or thick creamy greasy looking things started forming in the mixture. When I finished the heating, and adding some NaOH solution to return to pH 7, the remaining liquid was a mixture of glycerin and water below (probably + soluble salts), and something atop which looked like very dark brown biodiesel.Now, at room temp, there«s a mixture of liquid brown something, plus floating and submerged spots and bubbles and skimming floating layers of other whiteish solid things (guk). Could these be esterified FFA remains with longer chains that remail solid at room temp? How could this be if supposedly FFA react FIRST with the catalyst, and then with the WVO, and my yield for that batch seemed perfect? Any ideas? Regards, Christian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine
Eric, I read the 3 archives and what I previously said still stands. The thermal efficiency of a diesel far exceeds a stirling. The only time I would choose a stir;ing over a diesel is if my fuel were wood, coal, biomass or solar. None of those are useable in an internal combustion engine. Diesels run 15 to 25 to 1 compression. The ones 20 or higher get excellent economy. The Bourke was 50 to 1 and you could put your hand on the exhaust according to a pamphlet published by the Experimental Aircraft Assosciation. Kirk -Original Message- From: Eric Schaetzle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:55 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine Stirling engine's claim to fame? See the archived messages below. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=9970list=BIOFUEL http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=6853list=BIOFUEL http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=715list=BIOFUEL Eric Message: 9 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:22:07 -0600 From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine Thermal efficiency of a prime mover is a function of the delta T the engine operates over and is implemented in any engine using pressure change by a ratio of volume called compression ratio. That is why the diesel is the king and if the Bourke was available it would hold the crown. I think the stirling's claim to fame is solar or solid fuel. If you have a fuel that can be internally combusted efficiency says use a diesel. Kirk -Original Message- From: Manolo Rolan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 1:49 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine i'll keep thinking ... i'm trying to think on a solution on of a biodiesel processor off the grid perhaps using stirling engines an other technologies, just a personal challenge... just playing thanks Eric Manolo Rolan Valencia, Spain -Mensaje original- De: borealbliss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: viernes, 26 de abril de 2002 23:31 Para: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine hi all: making a bit of searching on google i've found some information on both technologies, and i've thought that they could be working together, anyone has try something on that way? thanks in advance Manolo Rolan Valencia, Spain It sounds inefficient- the energy produced by a Stirling engine run using a vortex tube would be less than the energy needed to compress the air to run the vortex tube in the first place. Wouldn't it? I suggest posting your message to one of these lists for a better answer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sesusa/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HotAirEngineSociety/ Eric __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] what could it be?
Christian writes: So I suddenly forced pH too low, but in the meantime, big flocks of something like waxes or thick creamy greasy looking things started forming in the mixture. When I finished the heating, and adding some NaOH solution to return to pH 7, the remaining liquid was a mixture of glycerin and water below (probably + soluble salts), and something atop which looked like very dark brown biodiesel. The dark liquid is called acidulated soapstock, and is almost entirely free fatty acid. (FYI -- Crude oleic acid made this way is also known as red oil.) This is the stuff I've been playing with for a couple weeks now. You can try to esterify it to biodiesel with acid catalyst, you can throw it on the nearest dirt road to keep the dust down, you can turn it into soap, you can react it with Ca(OH)2 to form the calcium salt which you can then feed to your pigs or dairy cattle as a ruminally inert fat booster, etc, etcMany people nowadays are frantically looking for wonderful uses for the stuff. Let us know what you find. Seriously, tho, what you're doing is great -- FFAs are basically the final effluent you have to deal with after neutralizing everything else. They're fairly strong herbicides, so you really don't want to just toss 'em in the compost with the aqueous phase. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] what could it be? (to Ken)
Interesting! Does it always form? And is heating and neutralizaing the usual way of getting to it? Thanks Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] what could it be? Christian writes: So I suddenly forced pH too low, but in the meantime, big flocks of something like waxes or thick creamy greasy looking things started forming in the mixture. When I finished the heating, and adding some NaOH solution to return to pH 7, the remaining liquid was a mixture of glycerin and water below (probably + soluble salts), and something atop which looked like very dark brown biodiesel. The dark liquid is called acidulated soapstock, and is almost entirely free fatty acid. (FYI -- Crude oleic acid made this way is also known as red oil.) This is the stuff I've been playing with for a couple weeks now. You can try to esterify it to biodiesel with acid catalyst, you can throw it on the nearest dirt road to keep the dust down, you can turn it into soap, you can react it with Ca(OH)2 to form the calcium salt which you can then feed to your pigs or dairy cattle as a ruminally inert fat booster, etc, etcMany people nowadays are frantically looking for wonderful uses for the stuff. Let us know what you find. Seriously, tho, what you're doing is great -- FFAs are basically the final effluent you have to deal with after neutralizing everything else. They're fairly strong herbicides, so you really don't want to just toss 'em in the compost with the aqueous phase. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arguments against US corn and soybean biofuel seems outlandish IF it boosts bushel price due to increased demand thus lowering US gov't subsidize payments helping to balance US deficits You can take my discussion points as either for or against, depending on your perspective. I agree with the use of EXCESS crop production being used for energy purposes. I dislike the inefficiencies of it. If farmers are going to grow energy crops, I think they should be growing Sugar Beets for Ethanol, or several alternative higher- yielding Oil Crops instead of Soybeans. I think it is foolish to grow Corn with the intention to produce Ethanol from it. If the corn has been grown for feed, and has been overproduced, of course it should be converted instead of left to rot. Have I thoroughly confused everyone yet? Motie and I would think the savings might provide synergy for invested interest in further development of the next big oil bonanza. Maybe a gov't.inc revenue restructuring without further citizen tax dollar giveaways and perhaps a boost for business/job development. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
What I've learned is US corn (ethanol) and soybean (biodiesel) are net gain fuel producers. The US has a excess crop and few nations buying. US gov't corn/soybean subsidy payments are much lower then US gov't petroleum subsidy payments. US gov't deficits are largely do to importing foreign petroleum. Petroleum is a net loss fuel producer. What I gather is gasoline benefits from ethanol and petro diesel benefits from biodiesel. Theres less cost in producing biofuel then petroleum fuel thus allowing more subsidy funding available for.. Comparing energy value of ethanol to gasoline and diesel to biodiesel the difference seem marginal. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
As a after thought what about added value of their by-products? MH wrote: Agreed! motie_d wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arguments against US corn and soybean biofuel seems outlandish IF it boosts bushel price due to increased demand thus lowering US gov't subsidize payments helping to balance US deficits You can take my discussion points as either for or against, depending on your perspective. I agree with the use of EXCESS crop production being used for energy purposes. I dislike the inefficiencies of it. If farmers are going to grow energy crops, I think they should be growing Sugar Beets for Ethanol, or several alternative higher- yielding Oil Crops instead of Soybeans. I think it is foolish to grow Corn with the intention to produce Ethanol from it. If the corn has been grown for feed, and has been overproduced, of course it should be converted instead of left to rot. Have I thoroughly confused everyone yet? Motie and I would think the savings might provide synergy for invested interest in further development of the next big oil bonanza. Maybe a gov't.inc revenue restructuring without further citizen tax dollar giveaways and perhaps a boost for business/job development. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: acid catalyzed ... cont...
Nitric acid would work good because it is a strong acid and as a strong acid has the capability to break the ester bonds, but that isn't the problem. Nitric acid (HNO3) when added to the mix breaks into an -OH group on the acid, and an -NO2 group on the glycerol molecule. NO2 is nitro and w/glycerol is nitroglycerin and you know how unstable it is. JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Nitric Acid is a Big, spell that BIG no no. I can't speak to exact specifics, but I can spell NITRO-GLYCERIN Probably a pretty simple process, whether one knows they are accomplishing it or not. Under the wrong circumstances, deadly in an equally as simple manner. Might I suggest we put the various acids to question before a chemist, rather than hypothesizing and perhaps flattening everything within a 100 foot radius? Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arguments against US corn and soybean biofuel seems outlandish IF it boosts bushel price due to increased demand thus lowering US gov't subsidize payments helping to balance US deficits You can take my discussion points as either for or against, depending on your perspective. I agree with the use of EXCESS crop production being used for energy purposes. I dislike the inefficiencies of it. If farmers are going to grow energy crops, I think they should be growing Sugar Beets for Ethanol, or several alternative higher- yielding Oil Crops instead of Soybeans. I think it is foolish to grow Corn with the intention to produce Ethanol from it. If the corn has been grown for feed, and has been overproduced, of course it should be converted instead of left to rot. Have I thoroughly confused everyone yet? Motie and I would think the savings might provide synergy for invested interest in further development of the next big oil bonanza. Maybe a gov't.inc revenue restructuring without further citizen tax dollar giveaways and perhaps a boost for business/job development. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Bravo! Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/30/2002 02:38 PM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Arguments against US corn and soybean biofuel seems outlandish IF it boosts bushel price due to increased demand thus lowering US gov't subsidize payments helping to balance US deficits You can take my discussion points as either for or against, depending on your perspective. I agree with the use of EXCESS crop production being used for energy purposes. I dislike the inefficiencies of it. If farmers are going to grow energy crops, I think they should be growing Sugar Beets for Ethanol, or several alternative higher- yielding Oil Crops instead of Soybeans. I think it is foolish to grow Corn with the intention to produce Ethanol from it. If the corn has been grown for feed, and has been overproduced, of course it should be converted instead of left to rot. Have I thoroughly confused everyone yet? Motie and I would think the savings might provide synergy for invested interest in further development of the next big oil bonanza. Maybe a gov't.inc revenue restructuring without further citizen tax dollar giveaways and perhaps a boost for business/job development. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--
Re: [biofuel] what could it be?
Christian asks: Does it always form? And is heating and neutralizaing the usual way of getting to it? FFAs ionize to some extent (i.e., they form soap) down to about pH 4.5, according to my expts. If you start with a collected glycerine phase at around pH 10, and your aim is to get it to neutrality, you wouldn't ever have to see the red oil. However, as you point out, the FFA/soap system is strongly buffered, so it's hard to get it precisely neutral. Much easier to overshoot to pH 4.5 (which breaks up all the creamy cottage cheese), and separate out the FFAs as red oil. Then the aqueous phase, no longer a buffer, can be brought back to pH 7 easily ( I like ammonia for that, since it adds nitrogen to the fertilizer you're making). Then you can, in good conscience, pour your neutral aqueous phase on the ground, and use your FFAs for .something. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Hello Keith and everybody I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless. Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives. Couldn't Menthanex be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment. George Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello George Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background: http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015c=1s=greider The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233 Trading Democracy - January 15, 2002 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli nes-business Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.) Best Keith I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE. This was a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought ethanol to meet needs. Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada than ethanol from the Midwest. Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state. If plants to produce MTBE can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol plants. California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so apparently they have cows. If they have cows then they should have some cow feed, right. That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol. Or maybe a little closer to the truth. Everybody knows that the American government is in bed with big oil. Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans. The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians. I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Methanex's chemical by itself did nothing to the environment. MTBE does not separate itself from gasoline and selectively leak from the tank. Although MTBE is a health risk, it is not by far the most toxic component of gasoline. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/30/2002 03:45 PM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:RE: RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again Hello Keith and everybody I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless. Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives. Couldn't Menthanex be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment. George Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello George Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background: http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015c=1s=greider The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233 Trading Democracy - January 15, 2002 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli nes-business Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.) Best Keith I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE. This was a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought ethanol to meet needs. Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada than ethanol from the Midwest. Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state. If plants to produce MTBE can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol plants. California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so apparently they have cows. If they have cows then they should have some cow feed, right. That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol. Or maybe a little closer to the truth. Everybody knows that the American government is in bed with big oil. Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans. The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians. I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo!
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Yes, and we in Canada should do the same to Ethyl, eh? They set the precedent that will now serve Methanex. See: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/ethyl.htm Edward Beggs, BES, MSc www.biofuels.ca on 4/30/02 1:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Keith and everybody I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless. Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives. Couldn't Menthanex be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment. George Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello George Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background: http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015c=1s=greider The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233 Trading Democracy - January 15, 2002 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli nes-business Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.) Best Keith I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE. This was a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought ethanol to meet needs. Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada than ethanol from the Midwest. Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state. If plants to produce MTBE can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol plants. California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so apparently they have cows. If they have cows then they should have some cow feed, right. That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol. Or maybe a little closer to the truth. Everybody knows that the American government is in bed with big oil. Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans. The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians. I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM
[biofuel] New member
Hey guys. Just as some background, I'm a 16 year old girl from New York. I am on my school's Envirothon team (you can kinda guess what that's about...) and this year our problem is that hypothetically, the government of town or city wants to replace large fields of corn with growing switch grass and willow shrubs to produce biofuel. I was hoping you guys could help me with some pros and cons, especially pros, of doing this, like how would it really effect our environment? And what kind of mandates or tax breaks or what not would there be? I have found many great sites on using switch grass as biofuel, but absolutely none on willow shrubs. So help if you can! Please! Thanks :-) ~Beki Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false
thanks for the information. in journeytoforever.com there is an offer of how to make PV in do it your self system do you know if it is available and how good it is. a.tov - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:31:36 +0200, you wrote: hello all. please I would like information about fuel cell where can I find reliable contact of fuel cell and solar PV units for a project. thank you. a.tov PV is much simpler and I will sort of assume you can find some in your area. FC, it depends on the size. If you wanted to power a large industrial building then you'd have to go to United Technologies, Fuel Cell Energy, maybe Global Thermoelectric, Plug Power or maybe H Power or Ballard or even DCH. There are others, but those would *claim* to be have something. For smaller, say to power a car, it's hard to say. I can tell you some who are working with carmakers, but that doesn't mean they'd have anything available to you right now. A few working with carmakers, Hydrogenics (GM), Ballard, Millenium (Peuogot, etc.) For powering a stationary thing, I think the two closest to consumer production are perhaps HPOW and-or PLUG, maybe a few others. I've heard some rumor that HPOW was close to doing something this year, and in some joint working with a PV concern as well. This is not comprehensive info. There are many many people making claims in fuel cells. Bottom line is I don't know of a straight answer on buying a fuel cell easily, but there are some who are within one or two years of putting one on a Home Depot Shelf for you to buy. Oh yeah, I think Coleman was working on bringing something to market this year, I don't recall if it was Ballard's design or someone else's. Also, I haven't researched this in about six months, so things may have changed dramatically. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New member
Here is one place to look: http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Crops/S568.htm Regards, Edward Beggs, BES, MSc www.biofuels.ca on 4/30/02 3:37 PM, beki317 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys. Just as some background, I'm a 16 year old girl from New York. I am on my school's Envirothon team (you can kinda guess what that's about...) and this year our problem is that hypothetically, the government of town or city wants to replace large fields of corn with growing switch grass and willow shrubs to produce biofuel. I was hoping you guys could help me with some pros and cons, especially pros, of doing this, like how would it really effect our environment? And what kind of mandates or tax breaks or what not would there be? I have found many great sites on using switch grass as biofuel, but absolutely none on willow shrubs. So help if you can! Please! Thanks :-) ~Beki Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New member
Another one , US - http://www.woodycrops.org/paducah/neuhauser.html on 4/30/02 3:37 PM, beki317 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc www.biofuels.ca Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New member
Beki, A Google search for coppiced willow or willow coppice will have hundreds of strikes. See also... Willow in general - inclusive of energy table for hardwoods http://www.esf.edu/willow/news2/n2home.htm The Salix Consortium - New York http://www.esf.edu/willow/news1/n1home.htm Salix - United Kingdom http://www.salix.org.uk Energy Crops http://www.dti.gov.uk/renewable/crops.html Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: beki317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: [biofuel] New member Hey guys. Just as some background, I'm a 16 year old girl from New York. I am on my school's Envirothon team (you can kinda guess what that's about...) and this year our problem is that hypothetically, the government of town or city wants to replace large fields of corn with growing switch grass and willow shrubs to produce biofuel. I was hoping you guys could help me with some pros and cons, especially pros, of doing this, like how would it really effect our environment? And what kind of mandates or tax breaks or what not would there be? I have found many great sites on using switch grass as biofuel, but absolutely none on willow shrubs. So help if you can! Please! Thanks :-) ~Beki Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New member
Hmmm, corn makes biofuel too.. ethanol and biodiesel, as well as feed. sounds like a step backwards. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: beki317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: [biofuel] New member Hey guys. Just as some background, I'm a 16 year old girl from New York. I am on my school's Envirothon team (you can kinda guess what that's about...) and this year our problem is that hypothetically, the government of town or city wants to replace large fields of corn with growing switch grass and willow shrubs to produce biofuel. I was hoping you guys could help me with some pros and cons, especially pros, of doing this, like how would it really effect our environment? And what kind of mandates or tax breaks or what not would there be? I have found many great sites on using switch grass as biofuel, but absolutely none on willow shrubs. So help if you can! Please! Thanks :-) ~Beki Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false
On Wed, 1 May 2002 00:43:04 +0200, you wrote: thanks for the information. in journeytoforever.com there is an offer of how to make PV in do it your self system do you know if it is available and how good it is. a.tov I was thinking a bit more about your question today. Let me revisit the fuel cell issue for a second, for my own benefit as much as anything, and then I'll punt your PV question: I think the FC issue got you some different respones. The links that people gave were quite to the general point of fuel cells, but I don't think they got at the gist of your question: if you want one now, this instant, no-more-fooling-around, for your home, where can you go? I think it would not be completely inaccurate to say that the Fuel Cell industry now is sort of at a point similar to where the digital photography industry was five or ten years ago: the man-on-the-street may, if he is very smart, have the brains to fully appreciate the future and where things are headed, but if he fights the fact that he is thinking ten years ahead of his time, there's just no way to actually buy the product and participate for less than a zillion dollars. As time passed, some cameras started to trickle out, and then the trickle became a stream and now it is a flood. One of the websites I follow recently mentioned that just two or three years ago (or maybe it was about five) Kodak was still selling a camera for about $28,000, the equivalent of which you can now buy for about $2,800. (Obviously, we're talking high-end stuff here, but there are some parallels on the consumer-side). With fuel cells, I don't know what the costs are precisely, but it is not so much an issue of having a zillion dollars perhaps as being in the right geographic location. I think a few selected areas are sort of serving as beta testing for natural gas fuel cells for the home. Since you asked your question, and I would add that Plug Power seems to be moving along a bit in the Northeast with a bit of a program here or there. Also, I remembered that Global Thermoelectric had announced a program in conjunction with an Indiana Utility, and I know of nothing that has stopped that. If you were in San Diego County, I think I could refer you to a solar installer, http://www.sunchoice.net/ but otherwise, I can't. I don't know what journey-to-forever is saying about do-it-yourself. Home Power magazine is often recommended by folks who have installed their own solar panels as a way to get started getting the real low-down. I just started subscribing. Annecdotally I can tell you that an interesting conversation I had with someone here was this: there are a lot of folks recently who have gotten into installing solar who think that competence as electricians instantly makes them qualified to sell and install solar, but it doesn't, and this will cause some fallout in the market. I think realgoods.com has a link or two not only to buying PV panels (probably not the best price) but also to some educational links. Sorry I can't do more, but I think rummaging around in a few more groups will get you additional answers. MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: what could it be?
35% HCl (muriatic acid) is roughly 14.8 Molar (14.8 moles/Liter solute) If you aren't familiar with the concept, 14.8 Molar is extremely concentrated and is powerful enough to take the biodiesel fatty acid esters and break them back into ffas and methanol. That is why you don't want to wash with a strong acid, and that is why once you add too much acid, you can't regenerate the biodiesel by adding NaOH to neutralize the pH. In fact, if you add too much HCl, it will even react with the methanol present (alcohols can act as weak bases in the presence of a strong acid) and the methanol will become methyl chloride Basically, adding NaOH will neutralize the excess HCl and the FFAs which are weak acids but this doesn't help you any and by add The vinegar is not strong enough at 3% acidity to break any of the ester bonds but will react with the excess sodium methoxide remember acetic acid is a VFA-volatile fatty acid meaning that it is a short chain fatty acid and behaves similar to LCFAs-Long chain fatty acids like oleic and palmitic that are found in fats, except VFAs are soluble in water, and their esters are also soluble in water, so a methyl acetate formed by reaction of acetic acid and sodium methoxide will be soluble in water and can be washed out... and excess acetic acid (vinegar) will not react with the biodiesel but since it is water soluble will be washed out and not remain in the biodiesel level... I think the guk formed is the reaction of ffas with chloride to become acyl chlorides... I'm not sure about this but if the -OH group is replaced with a -Cl, Chlorine which has a higher affinity that Oxygen will be harder to convert into biodiesel, but the Sodium Methoxide should be strong enough to do it. (H + Cl break and the H goes to the Methoxy group to reform methanol, while the -Cl goes with the acid to create an acyl chloride). Once all the FFAs have been acylated with chlorine, the HCl turns to methanol and reacts to form water and methyl chloride which will dissolve in the nonpolar ffa layer. It would not be a buffer system, just the HCl reacting with the biodiesel which raises the pH to neutrality as it neutralizes the HCl and creates the acyl chlorides and methyl chloride which are not terribly acidic. Once all the biodiesel and methanol been reacted, the excess HCl has nothing to react with and the pH drops sharply. I've never made biodiesel, but I'm relating to my knowledge of chemistry but I may not be 100% correct. JEFF --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian asks: Does it always form? And is heating and neutralizaing the usual way of getting to it? FFAs ionize to some extent (i.e., they form soap) down to about pH 4.5, according to my expts. If you start with a collected glycerine phase at around pH 10, and your aim is to get it to neutrality, you wouldn't ever have to see the red oil. However, as you point out, the FFA/soap system is strongly buffered, so it's hard to get it precisely neutral. Much easier to overshoot to pH 4.5 (which breaks up all the creamy cottage cheese), and separate out the FFAs as red oil. Then the aqueous phase, no longer a buffer, can be brought back to pH 7 easily ( I like ammonia for that, since it adds nitrogen to the fertilizer you're making). Then you can, in good conscience, pour your neutral aqueous phase on the ground, and use your FFAs for .something. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Gasoline is ~118,000 BTU/gallon Diesel is ~135,000 BTU/gallon Ethanol is ~80,000 BTU/gallon BioDiesel is ~117,000 BTU/gallon this, btw, is very interesting. take the time to go through it all. http://www.tc.gc.ca/envaffairs/climate/doc_converti/Etoh/ETOH-FNL-RPTAug30-1 999.htm http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/questions.html Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again What I've learned is US corn (ethanol) and soybean (biodiesel) are net gain fuel producers. The US has a excess crop and few nations buying. US gov't corn/soybean subsidy payments are much lower then US gov't petroleum subsidy payments. US gov't deficits are largely do to importing foreign petroleum. Petroleum is a net loss fuel producer. What I gather is gasoline benefits from ethanol and petro diesel benefits from biodiesel. Theres less cost in producing biofuel then petroleum fuel thus allowing more subsidy funding available for.. Comparing energy value of ethanol to gasoline and diesel to biodiesel the difference seem marginal. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] why aren't there ethanol plants in CA and NY...
I would actually make more sense to ship the ethanol to CA or NY than to build plants there since the raw ingredient: corn would then have to be shipped in instead and the shipping costs from the midwest would then result in the grain prices going down in the midwest (the economy essentially recoups the cost of transportation by making the product worth less so it is cheaper to transport - just look at the milk industry in America and you'll see what I mean.) The result of all this would also make the grain prices higher in CA and NY instead and cause even more strife for the Midwestern farmer. If you just make the ethanol and ship it from MN or IA or wherever else it is manufactured, you can ship the concentrated product to the end location - it makes sense to make cheese in WI before you ship a whole tanker truck of milk to Florida and it should also make sense to ship the final product... If the MTBE is not made in CA they have to ship that in anyway don't they? So what they heck is the problem? MTBE is actually only half as effective as Ethanol as an oxygenating agent since by molecular weight, MTBE has only about 18% oxygen and Ethanol is about 35% - that's not including density but it seems to me that you would only need 5% ethanol to get the same oxygenation as 10% MTBE JEFF thoughts? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
I don't claim to be a nutritionist, but could you define what you mean by available? There is a difference between being available and being usable. As well, there is also a difference between being available and being available in too high a ratio of caloric intake. Then of course there is always the cholesterol/saturated fat issue. I have a really difficult time accepting the broadness of such a premise. I'm not exactly protein or lipid deficient on an almost entirely vegetarian diet, or at least my tailor keeps telling me so each time I take the Levis in for alterations. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:53 PM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No Motie...no confusion here. Are you aware that distiller's grains are fed to livestock? Are you also aware that the vast majority of arable landmass is dedicated to livestock? Are you aware that the primary product of low-oil yielding soybeans is feed meal for livestock? In a nutshell, the vast majority of all agriculture is dedicated to livestock - even in the midst of farming for fuel issues. Just from the total caloric inputs vs. caloric yield equation, you might consider taking a look at Rifkin's Beyond Beef or Robbin's Diet for a New America. The simple facts of the matter are that most of what you and others call energy crops at present are actually primary livestock feed sources. The fact that ethanol can be derived from the grain prior to the feeding of livestock, or the fact that the oil extracted from soy can be turned into biodiesel while the primary product goes to livestock are in themselves declarative that what many perceive as wasteful practices are actually rather utilitarian. Unfortunately, many people, inclusive of Pimental, Club Sierra, and other self-interest groups fail to acknowledge the multiple end uses of all the primary and coproducts, essentially pigeon holing the mechanical energy issue and errantly declaring energy products from crops as being wasteful. Balderdash...Pure Hornswaggle and Tommy rot...! What would be wasteful is if the distillers grains or soy meal were just thrown on the dung heap, rather than utilizing them - which is not what happens in the real world. Perhaps if one these people want to make declarations as to wasteful agrarian energy practices from the caloric inputs vs caloric outputs perspective, they should start with that Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit they had for breakfast, the McNuggets or Whopper they had for lunch or that roast simmering on the stove for dinner. But then, that's getting too personal. It's much easier just to address energy issues in the main, as we've all been in the habit of attacking traditional dirty energy supplies such as coal, oil and nuclear. Why shouldn't biodiesel or ethanol be made an equally visible target? It sure conveniently takes the heat off our personal dining practices, which in their market entirety are the driving mechanisms of most agriculture - considerably more of an impetus than our automobiles are. Maybe we should put a few farmers to work on ways to feed the by-products of coal, oil and nuclear to livestock, so we can get as maximum a utility factor from them as we do from corn and oilseeds. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] why aren't there ethanol plants in CA and NY...
NY is a big corn grower in itself. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:10 PM Subject: [biofuel] why aren't there ethanol plants in CA and NY... I would actually make more sense to ship the ethanol to CA or NY than to build plants there since the raw ingredient: corn would then have to be shipped in instead and the shipping costs from the midwest would then result in the grain prices going down in the midwest (the economy essentially recoups the cost of transportation by making the product worth less so it is cheaper to transport - just look at the milk industry in America and you'll see what I mean.) The result of all this would also make the grain prices higher in CA and NY instead and cause even more strife for the Midwestern farmer. If you just make the ethanol and ship it from MN or IA or wherever else it is manufactured, you can ship the concentrated product to the end location - it makes sense to make cheese in WI before you ship a whole tanker truck of milk to Florida and it should also make sense to ship the final product... If the MTBE is not made in CA they have to ship that in anyway don't they? So what they heck is the problem? MTBE is actually only half as effective as Ethanol as an oxygenating agent since by molecular weight, MTBE has only about 18% oxygen and Ethanol is about 35% - that's not including density but it seems to me that you would only need 5% ethanol to get the same oxygenation as 10% MTBE JEFF thoughts? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: [biofuels-biz] Anyone in similar position?
Forward from the Biofuels-biz group. To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com From: Steve Madley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 19:01:08 +0100 Subject: [biofuels-biz] Anyone in similar position? Reply-To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Hello all I've been a subscriber to this excellent group for over a year now and this is the first post that I've placed, so I hope someone can help. I used to operate a Real Ale microbrewery in my town for a number of years before giving up due to pressure from Duty payments and the 'Big Breweries' in relation to my profit. I now have a redundant brewery that I believe is perfect for conversion to biodiesel manufacturing plant. This consists of 5x 180 gallon food grade stainless steel Grundy tanks. Is there any other person or group out there who has any past experience or knowledge in this type of plant conversion who can assist in any way? Absolutely any input will be appreciated. Best regards Steve Madley Delicate Essence Scotland U.K. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: Biodiesel Bulletin
From: National Biodiesel Board [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newsletter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Biodiesel Bulletin Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:40:50 -0500 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BIODIESEL BULLETIN A Monthly Newsletter of the National Biodiesel Board April 30, 2002 HEADLINES: SENATE APPROVES ENERGY BILL WITH BIODIESEL PROVISIONS METZ TALKS BIODIESEL WITH PRESIDENT BUSH ASTM ISSUES BIODIESEL FUEL STANDARD BOISE BUSES AND GARBAGE TRUCKS TO RUN ON BIODIESEL NATIONAL AFV ODYSSEY DAY FEATURES BIODIESEL FARM BILL ENERGY TITLE GIVES BOOST TO BIODIESEL SENATE APPROVES ENERGY BILL WITH BIODIESEL PROVISIONS On April 25, the U.S. Senate approved the Senate Energy Bill, S. 517 by a vote of 88 ö 11. The bill includes multiple provisions that will help level the playing field for biodiesel in the highly competitive energy marketplace. Those provisions are: Biodiesel Excise Tax Incentive ÷ S. 517 would provide blenders of biodiesel with a 1-cent reduction in the diesel excise tax for every percentage of biodiesel made from virgin vegetable oil that is blended with diesel up to 20 percent of total content. The legislation is specific to vegetable oil-based biodiesel and would reimburse the Federal Highway Trust Fund through the U.S. Department of Agricultureâs Commodity Credit Corporation. Blenders tax credit ÷ S. 517 also offers a half cent per percent up to 20 percent tax credit for biodiesel made from recycled oils and animal fats. Senators Max Baucus (D-MT) and Grassley sponsored the amendment. Renewable Fuels Standard ÷ Under S. 517, biodiesel is an eligible fuel to help the nation meet a new 5 billion gallon renewable fuels standard set in the legislation. The renewable fuels standard is similar to legislation introduced by Senators Chuck Hagel (R-NE) and Tim Johnson (D-SD). Removal of 50% Biodiesel Limit in EPAct ÷ S. 517 amended the Energy Policy Act of 1992 (EPAct) to encourage government fleets to use more biodiesel to meet current energy requirements. Senators Kit Bond (R-MO) and Blanch Lincoln (D-AR) authored the amendment in S. 517 to remove the 50 percent limit on biodiesel use for government fleets. Federal Fleet Use ÷ The legislation requires federal government fleets to use biodiesel and ethanol when they are cost competitive. Senators Mark Dayton (D-MN) and Grassley supported the measure. The U.S. House of Representatives approved their Energy Bill, H.R. 4, in 2001. However, none of these biodiesel provisions was included in H.R. 4. The differences between H.R. 4 and S. 517 will soon be reconciled in a joint House/Senate Conference Committee. ãWe look forward to similar support in the House of Representatives and seeing the President sign it into law,ä Metz said. ãMy son is coming back to the farm and will be a sixth generation farmer. I think what happens with this energy bill is crucial to a long-term solution for ag surplus and to the success of the next generation of farmers.ä METZ TALKS BIODIESEL WITH PRESIDENT BUSH National Biodiesel Board (NBB) President and American Soybean Association (ASA) board member Bob Metz, from South Dakota, represented soybean producers in a roundtable meeting with President George Bush in Wentworth, S.D. this month. The President stopped in Wentworth to visit an ethanol plant. Metz was one of about a dozen agriculture representatives who took part in the meeting, where he had the opportunity to talk with the President about the biodiesel tax incentive and the renewable fuels standard. I was very heartened to hear that he does not see this as strictly an ag issue, Metz said. He truly sees this as an opportunity to replace Middle East oil with renewable fuels from the United States. Metz said the President indicated that the quicker we can use renewable fuels from the United States the better off the United States will be. The President told Metz that he will do what he can in Washington. Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman also participated in the roundtable meeting and mentioned to the President that Metz had driven her in the Missouri Soybean Associationâs biodiesel pickup truck while it was in Washington at the end of its 10-year anniversary tour from Jefferson City, Missouri to the U.S. Capitol. ASTM ISSUES BIODIESEL FUEL STANDARD The premier standard-setting organization in the United States has issued a fuel specification for biodiesel. The American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM) issued Specification D 6751 for all biodiesel fuel bought and sold in the U.S., marking a major milestone for the biodiesel industry. Now that the full standard is in place, it sets the bar for all biodiesel production, said Steve Howell, Chairman of the ASTM Biodiesel Standards Task Force. It will help protect consumers from poor products and reduce the cost of buying and selling biodiesel. While many adopted the provisional specification in 1999 (PS 121), those that didn't had to negotiate a specification. With the final passage of D 6751, they
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Yes, and we in Canada should do the same to Ethyl, eh? They set the precedent that will now serve Methanex. See: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/ethyl.htm Edward Beggs, BES, MSc www.biofuels.ca How about Gerber? ... Chiefly because of this false advertising, according to UNICEF, 1.5 million infants die each year because their mothers unwittingly prepare infant formula with contaminated water, causing fatal diarrhea. During the 1970s, a world-wide grass-roots campaign focused attention on this problem, boycotting products made by Nestle, a major manufacturer of infant formula. Partly because of the Nestle boycott, the World Health Organization (WHO) developed and published a Code on Marketing of Breast-Milk Substitutes. The WHO code prohibits words like humanized breastmilk and equivalent to breastmilk. Furthermore, to protect illiterate women from being duped, the WHO code prohibits pictures on labels that idealize the use of bottle feeding. In 1983, Guatemala passed a law and regulations incorporating the WHO code. The goal of the Guatemalan government was to encourage new mothers (1) to breast-feed their infants and (2) to fully understand the threats to their babies of using infant formula as a substitute for breast milk. The Guatemalan law prohibited the use of labels that associated infant formula with a healthy, chubby baby; specifically, the law prohibited pictures of idealized babies on packages of baby food intended for children younger than 2 years. Furthermore, the Guatemalan law required labels to carry a statement that breast-feeding is nutritionally superior. The law also prohibited baby food manufacturers from providing free samples of their products (if a baby starts taking free samples the mother stops lactating, thus converting mother and infant into full-time, paying customers). And finally the law prohibited baby food manufacturers from directly marketing their products to young mothers in the hospital. The regulations went into effect in 1988 and all domestic and foreign manufacturers of baby foods -- with one notable exception -- came into compliance. Infant deaths attributable to bottle feeding declined, and UNICEF began highlighting Guatemala as a model for what works. However, the U.S. baby food manufacturer, Gerber (motto: Babies Are Our Business), objected to Guatemala's new law. Although the Guatemalan Ministry of Health made numerous attempts to negotiate with Gerber, the company reportedly continued to market its infant formula directly to mothers in the hospital, and continued to give free samples to doctors and day care centers. Most importantly Gerber refused to remove its trademark picture of a chubby, smiling baby from its product labels, and it refused to add a phrase saying breast milk was superior. In sum, Gerber thumbed its nose at Guatemalan health authorities, who were trying to protect their most vulnerable citizens, infants, against harm. In November, 1993 -- ten years after Guatemala passed its law, and five years after its regulations went into effect -- Gerber lost its final appeal. A Guatemalan Administrative Tribunal ruled in favor of the Ministry of Health and it looked as though even Gerber would have to comply with the Guatemalan law. But Gerber opened a new line of attack on Guatemala, arguing that the Guatemalan law was illegal under international statutes because the law was really an expropriation of Gerber's trademark. This tactic bought Gerber some time while the World Trade Organization was being created. Then in 1995, when the WTO came into being, Gerber dropped its claim about illegal expropriation of its trademark and began threatening to challenge Guatemala before a WTO tribunal. Within a short time, Guatemala realized it was now up against immense power and the Guatemalan government changed its law to allow Gerber to have its way. Gerber won without ever having to formally request that the U.S. take its case to the WTO. Just a few letters containing the WTO threat were sufficient. [more] http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=1646bulletin_ID=48 Rachel's Weekly #677 - Corporate Rights vs. Human Need, November 18, 1999 etc etc etc - not NAFTA indeed, NAFTA's big brother (everybody's!!), but so what if you die of cancer or Parkinson's disease (MMT) or dishonest advertising? You're dead anyway. Keith on 4/30/02 1:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Keith and everybody I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless. Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives. Couldn't Menthanex be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment. George Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello George Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background:
Re: [biofuel] RE: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Shukrainternationals wrote: Tell me about that! How can we retain jobs here if we have everything in Wal Mart and such big stores (even small ones) have Made in China. GO and check Wal-Mart and try to find one thing made in USA. BUYER, BEWARE! Your Job is at stake! Um, who are you blaming? China? Did you look into who kept pushing MFN status for China? Do you know what people are saying about Wal-Mart? http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12962 How Wal-Mart is Remaking our World The idea of this thread seems to be that trade is bad. It isn't, necessarily, it depends how it's rigged. Rigged it most certainly is, especially fair trade. On whose behalf, at whose expense? Not a simple matter. The so-called anti-globalisation campaigners are not anti-globalisation at all, they accept globalisation as a fact. They're anti-corporate globalisation, a different matter. Anti-WTO, anti-NAFTA, anti-IMF. For sound reasons, based on sound information and data. They include environmentalists, human rights activists, Third World development agencies, and, indeed, labour organisations, including US labour, and economists. The movement is itself globalised, with active membership from all continents and all regions, north and south, west and east, rich and poor countries. Thirty years ago the talk was of the global village. Yes. Now it's of the global boardroom. No - then the labour market becomes a downhill slide to the lowest pay and the worst conditions. It has to be people-centred, like everything else. People live in villages. Even in cities - call them neighbourhoods, but no matter how dysfunctional they might be (for the same reasons?), they're still more like villages than boardrooms. Alternative fuels go hand-in-hand with this approach - community-centred initiatives, local self-reliance, bioregionalism. And that all goes perfectly well with a different kind of globalisation that includes truly fair trade. If your import-substitution is to be at the behest of folks like Wal-Mart, or indeed the likes of ADM etc if you're talking of alternative fuels, it probably won't do American jobs and communities very much good. Substituting foreign oil with American oil won't do much good either. Studies showing that drilling the ANWR would create hundreds of thousands of jobs were a snow-job. Better studies found less than a tenth that many jobs would be created. But that's what you should expect from the oil companies. If one is concerned with jobs as a key objective, [the oil industry] is probably one of the poorest choices one can make to invest, of almost any industry. See: http://www.tompaine.com/opinion/2001/09/18/index.html Looking For Jobs In All The Wrong Places Renewable energy really can create jobs though, to everybody's benefit, not just S. Robson Walton's, at everyone else's expense, Americans and Chinese alike. Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:52 AM Subject: [biofuel] RE: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again I was thinking. If we lose that many jobs whenever we buy foreign products, what does that say about buying everything electronic from (made in)china?? Maybe. Or the millions of Cars we buy from Germany and Japan (or Korea for that matter)?? Maybe not - Alan Petrillo posted an article a while back about car companies merging, which showed that some of the foreign cars are more American than the American cars. Chrysler was recently bought out from Daimiler-Benz wasn't it?? The U.S. tax system puts global companies at a decisive disadvantage, John Loffredo, the vice president and chief tax counsel for Chrysler and its successor, DaimlerChrysler, told a hearing of the House Ways and Means Committee on June 30, 1999, just 20 years after his predecessors had gone, hat in hand, to beg Congress for a bailout. This issue became a major concern and when the time came to choose whether the new company should be a U.S. company or a foreign company, management chose a company organized under the laws of Germany. http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm?ID=4190 Chrysler Opted Out Of Taxes Adapted From The Book, The Cheating Of America Have you opened up a subject that could be expanded to other things?? But I think it's not so simple. Best Keith Thanks for getting me thinking!! Curtis --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the
Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false
thanks for the information. in journeytoforever.com there is an offer of how to make PV in do it your self system do you know if it is available and how good it is. a.tov No offers at Journey to Forever (journeytoforever.org - there's no journeytoforever.com), and no PVs, nor fuel cells. Not that they're not jolly nice things, but we don't have them. It does say this in one place: This page compliments of Steve Spence's Renewable Energy Resources -- The Discussion and Educational Resource for Renewable,Sustainable Home Built Energy Production. A DIY Guide for building your own Solar, PV, Hydro, Biofuel (Biodiesel, Ethanol, Etc.) Steam, and other Renewable Energy Solutions. See: http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:31:36 +0200, you wrote: hello all. please I would like information about fuel cell where can I find reliable contact of fuel cell and solar PV units for a project. thank you. a.tov PV is much simpler and I will sort of assume you can find some in your area. FC, it depends on the size. If you wanted to power a large industrial building then you'd have to go to United Technologies, Fuel Cell Energy, maybe Global Thermoelectric, Plug Power or maybe H Power or Ballard or even DCH. There are others, but those would *claim* to be have something. For smaller, say to power a car, it's hard to say. I can tell you some who are working with carmakers, but that doesn't mean they'd have anything available to you right now. A few working with carmakers, Hydrogenics (GM), Ballard, Millenium (Peuogot, etc.) For powering a stationary thing, I think the two closest to consumer production are perhaps HPOW and-or PLUG, maybe a few others. I've heard some rumor that HPOW was close to doing something this year, and in some joint working with a PV concern as well. This is not comprehensive info. There are many many people making claims in fuel cells. Bottom line is I don't know of a straight answer on buying a fuel cell easily, but there are some who are within one or two years of putting one on a Home Depot Shelf for you to buy. Oh yeah, I think Coleman was working on bringing something to market this year, I don't recall if it was Ballard's design or someone else's. Also, I haven't researched this in about six months, so things may have changed dramatically. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Suppliers?
Hello Robert Keith; Let me say that you are doing a fine job on promoting Bio diesel, so don't let anyone put you down. Thankyou! We do try. Now to the point, we all would like to see a list of producers in the USA as well as the whole world, it sounds like a big project but it could be done. What information should be included in this list and do you want to list it as it grows. We here in southeast Minnesota have been producing for the last 3 years and last year got to the point of making 150 gallons in each batch. This is just for our own use at this time, stocking up for a rainy day you could say. Keep up the good work. I'm not sure that I can Robert, we're as overstretched as all hell right now - 18/7 and we can't keep up. I'd no sooner posted that message (below) when I had second thoughts about it. Yes, I guess it could be done, but as you say, it's a big project. And we're 12,000 miles away, it's not that easy. And really, as I said, our main orientation is not to the US, important as it is. We're Third Worlders, that's our focus. I got a note from Martin, who runs the new list archives and much besides, here: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Info-Archive at NNYTech He'd be interested in setting up a page where people could register themselves as small biofuel producers - ethanol/biodiesel/etc, sorted by country/state. I said I thought it would be difficult to maintain, and I doubted that people would maintain it themselves. But I think that's the only way. Maybe I was being a bit too sceptical, in the circumstances. That's what Terry's done for the UK: www.ukbiodiesel.biz LINKS TO UK SUPPLIERS (by region) Any thoughts, anyone? It would be useful, eh? Even more useful if it included local workshops, local homebrewers' groups, even individual biofuellers, to help people form networks. But I think it'll have to be a group effort, D-I-Y. I'll try to help, others too I'm sure. Needs some discussion, those who'll do the work need some input and encouragement. I'll cc this to the Biofuel list, see what happens. Thanks again Robert. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Robert Piepenhagen aka BioBob Previous message: Okay... Is this an obvious declaration of a need to develop a biodieseler's index of small producers? Todd Swearingen Yes. We have suppliers listed at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html Biofuels supplies and suppliers And much besides, we don't get to hear of small producers, and we're much more interested in them anyway. I'd love to be able to offer a list of small producers, local producers, coops etc. Also local groups, local workshops, local what have you. Just send me the info, please, and I'll upload it and announce it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Not yet I will try some more experiments in the future. I need a more controlled environment. I am using a non heated building where the control sample also displayed some separation. Sorry for the delayed response all the ranting and raving turned me off to wading through the emails. Mike Frieders wrote: Perhaps we could get back to the subject of bio-diesel. Someone was experimenting with electricity in seperating out the glycerin. Did you have any luck? What about temperature, will cold for example cause the glycerin to seperate out of solution? Does glycerin freeze before BD or the other way around? Steven-Lee Craig wrote: Harmon, Sounds like you have really studied. In fact if you know as much about religion as you say, I would say you are an expert on the subject. Too bad you didn't realize that study of religion is as a potent poison as one can ingest. After all, look what conclusion you came to. You dumped the only true purpose for an existence on this planet. Too much study of religion equals, No faith. No future. I listened to a guy the other day that told me he learned more from the Buddhists and Hindus than from any Christian teaching. I am sure of one thing, and that is that he will learn more at his death than he ever learned from the Buddhists, Hindus, or the Christians. But by then it will be too late to act on it!!! Steven-Lee Craig Radio Free Huron serving Huron county 24 hours a day at 100.1 FM WWW.RADIOFREEHURON.COM As a former christian, and fundamentalist at that, I have to say as far as I'm concerned, christianity is a deception. And as I pointed out before, I have a degree in religious studies with an emphasis in biblical literature, and before I went back to school had studied both the bible and church history intensively for years. I know for a fact that I know more about the bible and church history than *any* preacher I ever met -- and I know plenty. The church is directly to blame for a great many of our current problems, environmental, social, and political, and has been since it's inception when they ripped off the messiah of Israel and perverted it into something it was not. The Inquistion was official church policy, they torturing and burning of thousands upon thousands of women in Europe was official church policy. The genocide of Native Americans, the enslavement of Africans, was made a part of church doctrine. The current War On Some Drugs (which accounts for 75% of our prison population) is pure religious persecution brought about by the church. The epitome of christian political policy in Amerika today is the most evil man in Amerika today, John Asscruft -- just look at his face, listen to his voice, it's like Nazi Germany all over again. Nazism is something else I've studied pretty intensely, and is one of the reasons I find the current regime so frightening. Adolph Hitler once said: Those who think National Socialism is a polical party know nothing about it. It is a religion, and the SS are the high priests. Hitler himself was not a great intellect, nor had he much personal power, he was a medium, a puppet, for the masters behind him who groomed him, educated him, and set him in place. There are great parallels between him and that evil little retard, George W. Bush. Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights
I don't claim to be a nutritionist, but could you define what you mean by available? There is a difference between being available and being usable. As well, there is also a difference between being available and being available in too high a ratio of caloric intake. Then of course there is always the cholesterol/saturated fat issue. Nope, myth. Facts about Fats- The Skinny on Fats http://www.westonaprice.org/facts_about_fats/skinny.html Keith I have a really difficult time accepting the broadness of such a premise. I'm not exactly protein or lipid deficient on an almost entirely vegetarian diet, or at least my tailor keeps telling me so each time I take the Levis in for alterations. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:53 PM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] journey to forever
People like David Morris and the ILSR, the Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse and Sustainable Minnesota do good work with these issues, but people don't want to listen. Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ceic/Search2/search.cfm Sustainable Minnesota's Biofuels Resources http://www.me3.org/issues/ethanol These are excellent links of general interest, but I found no specific story dealing with the specific issue of net energy, which is the single biggest sticking point I see going on, perhaps along with one or two others. But I have found some good rebuttal, here, but not yet in any kind of generic story form. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is itnow time to talk to your congressman?? again
Appal Energy wrote: I have a really difficult time accepting the broadness of such a premise. I'm not exactly protein or lipid deficient on an almost entirely vegetarian diet, or at least my tailor keeps telling me so each time I take the Levis in for alterations. Todd Swearingen Yeah, I have the same problem! I haven't eaten meat in almost 40 years, but I lack the anorexic look most people associate with vegetarians. . . (Neither am I exhibiting any signs of B vitamin deficiency or calcium loss in my teeth!) The conclusion of the post you responded to, however, is that we should strike a balance in food production. Good farming that produces healthy, sustainable yields depends on intelligent soil management. Intelligent soil management includes pasture for animals, and the input of their waste to maintain fertility. Aside from a few niche environments (deep sea ocean vents, for instance), I know of no natural habitats in which plants and animals do not coexist in symbiotic balance. Should we engage in extracting fuel in the process--whether ethanol, oil crops or cellulose for burning--we have to calculate total system inputs and outputs in order to address the viability of a given approach. I think this will depend on the climate, soil, and farming practices peculiar to a region. I sense this can be done, but the math wearies me. . . But biofuels make little sense if we don't address larger issues pertaining to land and energy use. First of all, we eat too much meat, and instead of using the whole animal for food and clothing, we grind up a good portion and feed it to the next generation of cattle. (I'm unaware of any carnivorous ungulates in nature!) My father in law tells me that in the old days, he would butcher a cow and use EVERYTHING, including the bones (for soup stock). Now, we're only eating muscle tissue, and most of us in North America eat way more of this than we need. (Thanks, in part, to the American Dairy Association who convinced us that half of our diet should consist of meat and dairy products.) Petroleum is too cheap, and we've grown far too accustomed to using vast amounts of energy to sustain our lifestyles. We could be a great deal more efficient with local production and distribution. However, I don't think we'll address this issue until we're faced with a crisis. (Then people will get mad, and we'll start dropping bombs, shooting missiles, and generally increasing the world's already excessive misery!) Further, I just read in the ACRES publication a claim by some Chinese bureaucrat that his nation is planting millions of trees in an attempt to undercut the prices paid to apple farmers in the Pacific Northwest. Local farmers are ALREADY suffering from overseas competition with cheaper labor. And thus, the race to the bottom continues. . . I'd better stop before I really get passionate. . . robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
Mr Beggs I read your link and noticed that it was dated April 1997. In the article it said that the lawyers for Ethyl thought the lawsuit would be over by year's end. Is this lawsuit over yet and if so, how did this end? George Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, and we in Canada should do the same to Ethyl, eh? They set the precedent that will now serve Methanex. See: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/ethyl.htm Edward Beggs, BES, MSc www.biofuels.ca on 4/30/02 1:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Keith and everybody I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless. Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives. Couldn't Menthanex be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment. George Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello George Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background: http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015c=1s=greider The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233 Trading Democracy - January 15, 2002 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli nes-business Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.) Best Keith I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE. This was a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought ethanol to meet needs. Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada than ethanol from the Midwest. Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state. If plants to produce MTBE can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol plants. California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so apparently they have cows. If they have cows then they should have some cow feed, right. That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol. Or maybe a little closer to the truth. Everybody knows that the American government is in bed with big oil. Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans. The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians. I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US. I forget the numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign oil. I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. Just that they were American jobs. Even if it was only produced in the Midwest it would be good for the whole country. George Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these states Do they not have ports to import cheap corn to make ETOH? Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support building a pipeline down from Alaska. I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying for them for a while and its only getting better. Come on Coasties put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program. __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups
