subject:"Re\: \[Tinyerp\-users\] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo\?"

@Oscar_Agreda and others,

As for myself, I had 5 years of very advanced Java practice and knew almost 
nothing of Python when I had to compare Openbravo to OpenERP. I had started my 
first Java open source project EmSim on sourceforge in 2004 (go hell IPower who 
dropped my domain).

Even considering this, it was no question for me than even including the Python 
learning curve (that one is fast, especially if you know a bit of dynamic 
languages like I knew Ruby), that OpenERP would lead us to faster much results.

I never came back to think the contrary. I like the Java platform 
(JVM/JRuby/Java when speed is very much required), but even if I mastered C++ 
and Java, I wouldn't came back to use them instead of Python for such business 
code. Python is not JRuby, but it's certainly good enough and IMHO better than 
Java (not to tell vs PL/SQL!) for such code when there are test and/or a huge 
testing community. At least writing OpenERP addons in Python totally makes 
sense to me.


RaphaÃ«l Valyi

CEO and OpenERP consultant at
http://www.akretion.com




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

I come from the so called advanced .NET world) and, 

learning OpenERP It was like the movie Avatar, as if I discovered a new world 
in OpenERP,  a world that I never imagined existed and where everything works 
and is possible, tthat world is made of great people, using the best 
technologies (simple to learn and very logicals to use, but powerful at the 
same time),

OpenERP is Avatar to me

cheers, oscar




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

Oscar... At last one programmer who agrees with me.

After pasing accross complicated, difficult implementations and start-ups with 
old technologies made propietary software as consultant but even as a 
customer... 

To make a customer start-up with openerp, even if you need punctual technical 
support on some extra module... it's easy, great and peacefull. 

With OpenERP, you can solve easily first barriers you can find on first 
sessions with final customers, just because they don't exists. I mean:
.- People like working with openerp. 
.- It's easy to learn
.- Any object can be found in an easy way
.- You can have shotcuts to go to your favorite menus.
.- Setting default values, makes easier their work.
.- Minimal report customization can be made directly so it's enought for some 
little companies.
.- Basic data can be imported directly by users, so it's enought for some 
little companies.

My customer in general are grateful of having such a real ERP like OpenERP on a 
very lowcost comparing other big ERPs. I can tell you more... During last days 
I recived 2 calls asking information about OpenERP from other ERP's customers 
because even if they started-up on 2007 or 2008 they are not satisfied with 
them at all. Both big propietary ERPs where simply customizing a report not to 
say making a module is such a kind of big headeache. 

There is solutions where you pay upgrading and technical support but each time 
a technicien has to connect with customer installation, service is invoiced 
apart. 
Where you pay for a new module and you have to be 2 days without accesing the 
system because they need upgrading and integrating your module with rest. 
Where you can not at all connect online with another solution.
Where you need terminal server to connect with.
Where you have not a Web interface at all
Where teaching final users is another big headache because they are not user 
friendly at all.
Solutions where you need at last 6 months of sessions and teaching for even 
little companies, not to say big companies. 
and more, and more... 

I think we are very lucky of having OpenERP as a complete and integrate 
solution. Always things can be better, but they are really good now comparing 
others. 

So.. enjoy and try OpenERP 

  
 [Laughing]


Manuales, Videotutoriales de OpenERP en http://www.openerpsite.com
http://www.aulaerp.com




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

I definitely agree with  RaphaÃ«l Valyi , certainly with Dominique and of 
course with Ferdinand

they are right on the target..

Saludos, oscar




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

2010-02-01 Thread forum-user

Please keep discutions like this going, this has been very interesting to 
monitor and learn from.

one of THE BEST POSTS by far

this is an incredible and intelligent post

I will say that I don't know Python , but I have to learn it before I can even 
consider selling any OpenERP Services.

Great people are you

cheers, Oscar.




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

@rvalyi

I'm starting to be a huge fan of your writer talent :)
Very informative...




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?


 - you are almost the unique OpenERP integrator that didn't learn  programming 
 along you functional skills. You are almost the unique exception and you 
 could start a sustainable activity only recently (one year ago you would not 
 have make it, too many bugs).

I can't believe I'm the only one working like this!!! There should be more 
freelance consultants than me!!


 - even with that, you still rely on programmers like us to manage some of 
 your own projects. I mean, We or Zikzakmedia and the other gave you a hand on 
 your projects (Elsenordelmar, Logiscenter... for us). How would you do 
 without engineers?
 I mean I absolutely do not criticize what you do and I'm happy when we can 
 team together, but what is your point coming here and telling programming 
 skills are optional? They are optional if you pay somebody do it for you, 
 otherwise I don't want to see how you'll migrate your data/version or close 
 you accounting period.
 


RaphaÃ«l is totally different managing a project or AFTER passing the start-up, 
customer decide to make some programming/adapting module to make easier they 
operative. As you say you built a very concrete and concise module for El Sr 
del mar: Stock in 2 measure units, but the 98% of functionality needed was 
filled by standar modules, spanish localization and another few extra modules. 
El sr del mar was working by now when you made the module. Logiscenter needed 
prod_lot_autosplit and publicated last version had a bug. Your team built the 
module so I thought you were the best to repare it. Again. rest of 
functionality used is taken just from publicated on stable branch. And Yes... 
when I need an extra functionality to my customers i have to contract a 
programmer and pay for it. My customer agreed with this. But I always try to 
investigate just publicated modules before contracting programmers and 80% of 
times is possible to find something that fit customers needs. Thank you all 
guys publicating on extra-addons. 

 

 I mean this is pretty much when you came here to tell hey folk we can 
 integrate OpenERP in 5 days, and then you Gtalk me during week ends because 
 you are totally lost with data importation and OpenERP bugs, why do you need 
 to come and tell it's so easy then? What the benefit of this, getting a ton 
 of noobs jumping in that will fail their projects and then tell OpenERP is 
 crap? For your customer to pay you even less days for your projects, so we 
 don't have the skilled integrators ecosystem that make the product more 
 mature?
 

I understand nothing about this paragraphe. I NEVER and say again NEVER said 
that you can integrate OpenERP in 5 days. The most quick project I made is 1-2 
month long even if it's a very little company. I just gtalk to you to offer a 
work or asking some punctual easy doubts for 4 or 5 times. I asked to you about 
migration, not because I was totally lost but because the origin system was 
an old dinosaur ERP and I just offered to you the posibility of making a 
quotation. After that I offered the work on launchpad. 
My operative is, if there is a bug I report on launchpad. If customer has got a 
technical support contrat, I send it to company who is supporting my customer 
and after reparing we always publish patch. So easy like that. If a final 
customer wants jumping into OpenERP, first have to learn about openERP and 
contract technical support. He does not need programming. 


 Don't get us wrong, coding is not only about creating new modules to meet 
 exotic requirements. It's also very much about only getting rid of the nasty 
 blocker bugs. All versions have critical bugs. On a small scope you can may 
 be find a version that fit your basic needs. On a larger perimeter, like for 
 instance when accounting is required, that's impossible (or do you think we 
 fight on Launchpad bugs just for fun?)
 

Why you get ungry with me? I use only spanish localization modules. It fits 99% 
of spanish customer needs. It's good made. We try don't migrating old fiscal  
data but mantaining them on old system for consulting. I customer want's to pay 
migration... it depends on origin data the cost of it so he must agree with 
price. 


 
 I'm suspicious Spain is not where accounting is the most challenging. But I 
 know that in France there were much more issues. I bet @Gavin in the US is 
 totally lost. Now for us in Brazil, we need module such account_tax_include 
 to respect the fiscality (+ a good deal of other modules). 
 account_tax_include have rounding bugs such as this one:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/openobject-addons/+bug/510726
 Do you really think that's good to tell: hey folk no problem you can go in 
 prod with this out of the box? Well I don't.

I don't know in other countries. In spain localization project is very mature. 
Thanks to everyone who colaborate on it. 

OK, we all agree on this; this doesn't scale at all. And that's one of the 
reason the community recently have an argument with

Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

[quote=anajuaristi]
 - you are almost the unique OpenERP integrator that didn't learn  programming 
 along you functional skills. You are almost the unique exception and you 
 could start a sustainable activity only recently (one year ago you would not 
 have make it, too many bugs).

I can't believe I'm the only one working like this!!! There should be more 
freelance consultants than me!!


 - even with that, you still rely on programmers like us to manage some of 
 your own projects. I mean, We or Zikzakmedia and the other gave you a hand on 
 your projects (Elsenordelmar, Logiscenter... for us). How would you do 
 without engineers?
 I mean I absolutely do not criticize what you do and I'm happy when we can 
 team together, but what is your point coming here and telling programming 
 skills are optional? They are optional if you pay somebody do it for you, 
 otherwise I don't want to see how you'll migrate your data/version or close 
 you accounting period.
 


RaphaÃ«l is totally different managing a project or AFTER passing the start-up, 
customer decide to make some programming/adapting module to make easier they 
operative. As you say you built a very concrete and concise module for El Sr 
del mar: Stock in 2 measure units, but the 98% of functionality needed was 
filled by standar modules, spanish localization and another few extra modules. 
El sr del mar was working by now when you made the module. Logiscenter needed 
prod_lot_autosplit and published last version had a bug. Your team built the 
module so I thought you were the best to repare it and I asked quotation to you 
for reparing. Again. rest of functionality used is taken just from publicated 
on stable branch. 
And Yes... when I need an extra functionality to my customers i have to 
contract a programmer and pay for it. My customer agreed with this. But I 
always try to investigate just publicated modules before contracting 
programmers and 80% of times is possible to find something that fit customers 
needs. Thank you all guys publicating on extra-addons and of course tiny. 

 

 I mean this is pretty much when you came here to tell hey folk we can 
 integrate OpenERP in 5 days, and then you Gtalk me during week ends because 
 you are totally lost with data importation and OpenERP bugs, why do you need 
 to come and tell it's so easy then? What the benefit of this, getting a ton 
 of noobs jumping in that will fail their projects and then tell OpenERP is 
 crap? For your customer to pay you even less days for your projects, so we 
 don't have the skilled integrators ecosystem that make the product more 
 mature?
 

I understand nothing about this paragraphe. I NEVER and say again NEVER said 
that you can integrate OpenERP in 5 days. The most quick project I made is 1-2 
month long even if it's a very little company. I just gtalk to you to offer a 
work or asking some punctual easy doubts for 4 or 5 times. I asked to you about 
migration, not because I was totally lost but because the origin system was 
an old dinosaur ERP and I just offered to you the posibility of making a 
quotation. After that, I offered the work on launchpad. 
My operative is, if myself or a customer of mine, find a bug I report on 
launchpad. If customer has got a technical support contract, I send it to 
company who is supporting my customer and after reparing we always publish 
patch on launchpad. So easy like that. If a final customer wants jumping into 
OpenERP, first of all they have to learn about openERP and contract technical 
support. He does not need programming. 

Please take a look to the methodology I use for implementing openerp. You have 
got a resume on openerpsite. I even built a course in spanish about it. Noone 
says it's easy, but If it was, openERP wouldn't be a complete ERP. 


 Don't get us wrong, coding is not only about creating new modules to meet 
 exotic requirements. It's also very much about only getting rid of the nasty 
 blocker bugs. All versions have critical bugs. On a small scope you can may 
 be find a version that fit your basic needs. On a larger perimeter, like for 
 instance when accounting is required, that's impossible (or do you think we 
 fight on Launchpad bugs just for fun?)
 

Why you get ungry with me? You are saying we need a version free of bugs, and 
one that just I needed was yours, there was a bug and we payed for the 
solution. It's right!! This is open source. We understand the way it works and 
I try explaining to my customers. As much as clean is the code an most tested 
it is... will be better, but there is no software free or propietary free of 
bugs. Difference is that using openerp if you are skilled, you can repair 
yourself. With propietary system you can't. If you are not skilled you have to 
contract someone to repair. Where is the problem here?

I use only spanish localization modules. It fits 99% of spanish customer needs. 
It's good made. We try don't migrating old fiscal  data but mantaining

Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

@Ana,


 RaphaÃ«l is totally different managing a project or AFTER passing the start-up

Oh yes, of course I think nobody here was meaning you would need to be a coder 
to actually just use the ERP, of course not. We were talking about that 
implementation/startup time.
Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure you would need a gain coding skills/a coder when 
you need to migrate or if you did some mistake.
This makes OpenERP a different program than say Ubuntu or Drupal or phpBB were 
you can eventually go pretty far without ever requiring a coder. I wanted to 
insist OpenERP is not that mature, that's our whole point.



 
 Quote:
 I mean this is pretty much when you came here to tell hey folk we can 
 integrate OpenERP in 5 days, and then you Gtalk me during week ends because 
 you are totally lost with data importation and OpenERP bugs, why do you need 
 to come and tell it's so easy then? What the benefit of this, getting a ton 
 of noobs jumping in that will fail their projects and then tell OpenERP is 
 crap? For your customer to pay you even less days for your projects, so we 
 don't have the skilled integrators ecosystem that make the product more 
 mature? 
 
 I understand nothing about this paragraphe. I NEVER and say again NEVER said 
 that you can integrate OpenERP in 5 days. The most quick project I made is 
 1-2 month long even if it's a very little company
 


All right, my bad, I was thinking about that one:
http://www.openobject.com/forum/topic12882.html

The 5 days mention is actually from Tiny. Well my comment applies to them 
then, sorry for the miss-attribution.
Oh, we also connected Magento to OpenERP in less than 5 days upfront yes, 
because our customer promised us he would make his way with OpenERP (may be 
because he made it with Magento which is actually a lot easier). Well, soon he 
told us OpenERP gave him a good definition of the world regression and we 
sold him a 12 days support/maintenance contract and I'm pretty sure that was 
the bare minimum (Ok, there is a Magento connection inside)... Still, I'm 
curious how it went for that other 5 days implementation from Tiny here...


 
 Difference is that using openerp if you are skilled, you can repair yourself. 
 With propietary system you can't. If you are not skilled you have to contract 
 someone to repair. Where is the problem here? 
 


All right, it was my point too. My point is that it's pretty improbable you 
don't need fixing at all, then at some point you likely depend on a coder. It's 
very unlikely 5.0.6 is OK out of the box, I think that was our whole point with 
Ferdinand. I also think proprietary ERP's still have a smaller density of 
bugs/regressions within their basic scope probably because testing is taken 
more seriously, probably because they have more money to do it. That's 
important guys who come to OpenERP know their will bugs and there will be 
blood.[/quote]


RaphaÃ«l Valyi

CEO and OpenERP consultant at
http://www.akretion.com




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

Hi Gavin,

I understand your frustration. Open source is different mind set (it took me 
some time to figure it out myself). If you download any proprietary ERP 
software, you will probably not get as many errors as OpenERP (specially 
programming related errors i.e. python errors). Don't think it is due to poor 
quality of the code. I should admit OpenERP design is v.smart. As far as 
implementations are concerned, in my experience, there are very few vanilla 
implementations, most of the implementations require customizations. Besides 
the customizations, one need to know Python in order to troubleshoot. 
As you expressed your concern about fork, there is already one (triton or 
tryton i think). But OpenERP/OpenObject is more popular, more contributions.

A word of advise, take little time out to learn python, xml, postgresql (i am 
trying to learn too) ... this will make your life much easier where OpenERP is 
concerned and this will not happen overnight  most experienced members 
here didn't learn all this in one day  they spent good amount of time in 
these technologies ... i guess we should too




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

[quote=dhariwal].you will probably not get as many errors as OpenERP 
(specially programming related errors i.e. python errors). Don't think it is 
due to poor quality of the code. I should admit OpenERP design is 
v.smart.[/quote]
I disagree, it is due to poor quality of code. Good code will give no error, 
bad code will give the wrong outcome, poor quality of code will give errors 
and/or wrong output.

Due to the fact that python is a interpreted language an error will only occur 
when that part of error code is hit versus a compiler language that will error 
out already when compiling, at least for the technical part. So python has some 
advantages but also disadvantages. A good programmer is aware of this and will 
test his/here delivered code to overcome the disadvantage of an interpreter 
language.  

Therefore testing a proposed solution is most important in OpenERP before 
merging a solution into the standard. Glad that the unit test server is live 
some weeks now and is given the first results. Unit test should be mandatory 
for every module in the near future.
Even more reliable i.m.h.o. is the new functional testing framework based on 
Cucumber and OOOR (by akretion) framework, OERPScenario 
https://code.launchpad.net/oerpscenario writen by CamptoCamp.


Jan
www.veritos.nl
www.supportandmaintenance.org




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

@janneman and @dhariwal,

I agree with most of your remarks. About code quality: my vision is that Fabien 
is a bit like an artist: he got the overall architecture extremely right where 
so many team of engineers failed before and are yet to fail. In one way in 
invented the Ruby on Rails productivity for the legacy ERP world and got a 
respectable set reusable modules running upon that.

Fine, now, may be like an artist, he lacked a lot of rigor in the day to day 
implementation and so did others from Tiny (obscur commit messages like 
modifs, variables names such as todo come directly from him). Meaning 
inside the good architecture there are a lot of coding errors, poor respect of 
conventions (naming, coding, PEP8, English, Terminology...), poor enforcing of 
test first approach...

Because the scope has gone very large upon that basis which is still far from 
perfect, I hope this is at least acknowledged by Tiny at least toward the 
community members proposing merges, work and ideas.

Acknowledging it and teaming with the community to fix it is an reasonable 
perspective, but it as to be done. Otherwise OpenERP will reach a quality 
asymptote were one bug fix lead to one regression and no feature can be added 
with an acceptable compatibility / without regressions. I've seen so many 
softwares trapped at that asymptote, I don't want to invest in one that will be 
trapped here too before even it can turn a mass market product.


RaphaÃ«l Valyi

CEO and OpenERP consultant at
http://www.akretion.com




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

I share this same opinion. We are working with OERP for almost 2 years and 
everyday it's a challenge discovering and solving new problems. The lack of 
documentation and the problems of each new version makes it impossible to get a 
stable version.

For each project and for each update it's seems we start debugging from scratch.

Antonio
Multibase
www.multibase.pt




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

Just,

May be when I said Openbravo was more professional, then I should illustrate. 
Well, look their wiki spec or look their organization and public schedule here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjMsaCphoKkzcFBXWkFTVDlKZzVGVGxZNFNsbWdQT0Ehl=fr
(look at the several tabs)

So yes, no comparison. But professional organization doesn't make all, their 
platform is still really far away from OpenObject as I said, their programming 
languages are obsolete (PL/SQL) or verbose Java at best. All that professional 
organization cost money and they won't be cheap tomorrow. But that gives an 
illustration of what is a better internal organization (remark however that 
Tiny uses OpenERP for that - they just connected it to Launchpad bug management 
while Openbravo don't eat their own dogfood here as they use Google 
Spreadsheet).


RaphaÃ«l Valyi

CEO and OpenERP consultant at
http://www.akretion.com




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

I want to highlight the comment from Raphael when says its like linux, now 
OpenERP has many issues but their platform is really impressive and can be 
better, the integration with community is getting better or at least Tiny is 
trying, but with more partners with Tiny and more users / hackers from 
community will continue improving the product, remember now the market is 
changing we need a product with innovations and stability, many issues come 
with this, there is when functional experts and developers make their 
corrections.

regards,




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

I posted a reply and it never showed up!?!? wtf

In summary, thanks so much for the feedback. I was suspicious of some problems 
going on, and thanks to your honesty, I know I was correct.

That's not a bad thing - better the devil you know! It seems I have come on 
board at a bad time, growing pains. Hopefully Tiny gets the structure right 
soon, and the community gets a better workflow/integration.

I really we simply had better documentation. The features page which lists 
all the modules, has a really brief description of them. How do we use them? I 
don't mind paying for it - Tiny has to make money somehow. But it just doesn't 
seem to exist. A support contract (partnership) doesn't make up for poor/no 
documentation. 

I will be honest - I'm really concerned about buying a partner contract at the 
moment - because I think Tiny are too busy to really give good support to 
partners. Is this the case? Can current partners give me some idea of what you 
get extra when you buy a parnter contract?

Peace and goodwill to all




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

To see if I can used the word Adempiere




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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

@Gavin,

Yes, OpenERP was only installable in prod by serious serious geeks so far (not 
only computer geeks, but also ERP specialists, good consultants, so aliens in a 
word), that's why there are so few I think. Oh yes, there are plenty of those 
guys say in the aerospace/banking fields. But the point is that since it 
targets the mid markets, integrators can hardly attract them. 
But overall it already makes an ever growing few success stories and a ever 
growing skilled community.

Imagine guys skilled like this one http://www.chricar.at/ChriCar/index.html 
working at night and week ends to have its integration business sustainable. It 
was not easy, that's sure. People have to realize how difficult it is, even 
that's true, done with the right guys it can be several times cheaper than high 
end proprietary ERP's.

I've been partner of Openbravo one year when I was taking care of the tech 
survey at Smile, and in my opinion, yes, it's just worst. I should say I've 
seen quite a few guys trying both and sticking to OpenERP but never the 
reverse. But those are few stories because ERP's are so complex than learning 
two is so hard. I've also know some Openbravo partners that invested all into 
it and just died without even be able to try OpenERP, end of the story (one 
example, second French partner; dead //forge.openbravo.com/users/palmtree-it )

IMHO, Openbravo is much more professional with all the marketing, the release 
cycle, the work planing, the partnership and many things. Thanks to their fund 
raise, they hired experienced guys Tiny did not have. At some point they are 
organized just like a non open source company (still they release their work 
publicly).

BUT, the flip side, is that it costs them money, so very easily you would have 
to start paying way more to get any support.
All those non coding guys live with your money: 
http://www.openbravo.com/about-us/board-directors/
(and no, they haven't a such large real customer basis that it's negligible)

My opinion is that by 2008 they were never competitive against SAP BO/ Sage 
X3/MS Navision/Divalto in France in the 2 years term (and decision makers 
hardly think about later). Luckily for them, it might change soon, I think they 
improved a bit (they actually listen to the suggestion I gave them with making 
a REST bridge, invested on minimal modularity) and also outsourced to India 
were they could finally get the ton of polishing work on their obsolete 
expensive tech that was required. So I think in 2010 they just start being 
competitive against some proprietary ERP's in rich countries too; finally.

The fundamental difference between Openbravo and OpenERP is pretty much a whole 
different technology at its roots. I won't take time to try to convince you 
here: but Openbravo is a ton (millions of lines) of non OOP PS/SQL lurking 
inside XML CDATA sections, at best verbose Java (and consider the Java language 
being abandoned slowly now for high level business code, even more now with the 
Sun collapse; don't get me wrong, the Java platform on his side with the new 
language running on it will have a bright future. But hey, OpenERP  close to 
running Jython smoothly, so OpenERP wins again here).

Openbravo modularity is really childish compared to OpenERP: no way to add 
screen extension points, no component oriented UI (a lot more clicks), method 
granularity is almost always several hundreds lines of PS/SQL: if a module want 
to override something: he hardly can call super, he should copy/paste/change a 
whole PS/SQL procedure. Now they have a way to package procedures and screen 
together in a module, but those will be hardly compatible. Really far from the 
real tight integration you can achieve with OpenERP modules.

unlike OpenERP, Openbravo has no BPM engine to abstract the workflow logic: 
it's all if/else hardcoded instead.

Openbravo doesn't comes close to the memory session new gen osv_memory OpenERP 
wizards to offer a modular OOP decent UI (even if further improvement would be 
welcome).

Because they don't use an ORM in their core (Hibernate is used by less than 5% 
of the logic, only the most recent stuff), they don't have caching and the hit 
the SGBD much more heavily than OpenERP, their performance suck totally (just 
install it and you will understand).

Their development cycles are really orders of magnitude slower compared to 
OpenERP: their screen are generated static HTML taking dozens of minutes to 
generate and then you have to deploy start your Java server which is really a 
slow startup compared to OpenERP...

Because of those fundamental differences in the platform, being a successful 
Openbravo third party integrator is so much harder (nearly impossible, find me 
just one that his not just an self bought Openbravo showcase). Remember 
Openbravo raised nearly M 18$ and invested heavily in marketing. They say now 
that want to fund raise again (future financing rounds

Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

hello,

Gavin wrote:
 
 I have grave concerns about the bugs in OpenERP, and the lacklustre effort at 
 fixing them. And the strange release cycle.
 

After a year, I guess you are familiar with launchpad and know about the 
release cycle. What else are you looking for ?

Gavin wrote:
 
 I also cannot figure out what is happening with the project ... what is 
 OpenObject compared to OpenERP.
 

OpenERP = OpenObject + ERP addons modules

Gavin wrote:
 
 
 It all seems to me like a bunch of very smart geeks coming up with cool 
 ideas, doing a half-assed job on them, and moving on. So many modules and 
 features, so little support. We have a saying spread yourself too thin
 

This is not wrong, OpenERP developpers like innovation more than anything else.

Gavin wrote:
 
 But my biggest worry is that OpenERP/OO is going to fork off soon, because it 
 seems very tightly controlled by Tiny (anyone remember Compiere/Adempiere 
 split?)
 

So what ?

Gavin wrote:
 
 
 I've read comments in the Launchpad from integrators saying they cannot use 
 stable branch for clients. I really need to be sure, if I sign up as a 
 partner, and invest any more time into learning OpenERP, that I can make 
 money off it by implementing it for clients!
 

Integrators will enlight their added value, which is a real one and they 
usually fix small and big bugs. Nevertheless, odoo.com customers use standard 
stable, and I guess they are happy with it.

Gavin wrote:
 
 I have only looked briefly at OpenBRAVO, so they might be worse :( ... but 
 can anyone reassure me about coming on board with OpenERP?

You'll make friends in the OpenERP community and they will help you if they 
can, but they cannot make it easy when it is complex. Only you can bet on your 
own success and know if it's worth to put your hands in the engine.
regards


Dominique
http://sisalp.fr , HÃ©bergement OpenERP 
http://bdll.fr/openerp-serveur-gratuit.html




 m2f 

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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

current requisits to implement OpenERP (obviously depends on what you want to 
do)
* very good ERP knowledge
* good python knowledge
* patience   [Wink] 
Lot of things work very nicely especially the server itself, many modules and 
functions are not yet feature complete and/or not well tested. 
But lot of improvements are on the way (incomplete list ...)
* community organisation
* reporting
** mako templates
** Openoffice Server integration
* better GTK client
* Koo
* OpenERP Scenario
* OOOR - OpenObject On Rails
* number of new bugs seems to decrease - including duplicates etc 
** 75 open server-bugs in 3 month
** 75 open addons-bugs in 6 month

all this will boost OpenERP but
my guess 6-12 month to get all this production ready




 m2f 

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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

Sorry @ferdinand and @rvalyi

I don't understand when you say things like... OpenERP needs good python 
knowledge to be implemented on production. 

I think is important to define what really the customer needs. There is miriad 
of little and medium companies where OpenERP estable release + country 
localization modules feel perfectly their needs without needed programing for 
them. 

There is also alot of extra-addons modules working just fine!!! So if you know 
them you can adjust your customers needs WITHOUT programming more. Yes.. I know 
there is a lot of people here who's job is programming, but I always try to 
show to customer an adecuate extra-addons module to fill their needs than 
programming. Problem is that extra-addons is growing and growing more and more 
and it's each day more difficult selecting the addecuate modules or testing 
them to try the functionality.

If you take a look to stable extra-addons you could see there is a lot of 
modules with similar functionality, made by different partners, enterprises. 
Most of them are working but there is some of them that aren't, so by now... I 
only take Tiny's modules or other community members recomended and tested 
modules to be installed on my customers installations. 

Look at invoicing, sales, purchases modules... there is so many modules related 
to same area... is imposible managing and being informed about all published 
modules and I'm sure there is a lot of duplicated functionality built.

In the other side, there is missing functionality for big manufacturing 
companies, but it seems noone except tiny is working on this, so I think there 
should be a kind of organization on extra modules where partners could make 
better an existing module and not rebuilding a just published module. I think 
is loosing effort and time for all of them. 

So now, for me I think  is much more important focussing customers 
implementation not just programming for them but planning rich teaching and 
existing functionality profit

About OpenERP and OpenBravo. In spain we now a pair of companies who should 
implement openbravo to their customers that are now trying OpenERP with new 
customers, so sincerely I think OpenERP is now a serious competitor for 
Openbravo and it will be just more serious for big dinosaur propietary ERPs in 
a very short time.

@Gavin: ONE YEAR implementing OpenERP?? Please call a serious consultant, 
pay for his services and sure hi/her will guide you implementing it to start 
running in a couple of months with standar functionality. Sorry but, I don't 
believe you are trying OpenERP so long if you just don't know about launchpad, 
extra-addons and just basic concepts of openerp begginers. 

Thank you very much!!

Ana


Manuales, Videotutoriales de OpenERP en http://www.openerpsite.com
http://www.aulaerp.com




 m2f 

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Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?

@Ana,

I don't understand when you say things like... OpenERP needs good python
knowledge to be implemented on production.

Well excuse me, that's me who don't see your point:
- you are almost the unique OpenERP integrator that didn't learn programming
along you functional skills. You are almost the unique exception and you could
start a sustainable activity only recently (one year ago you would not have
make it, too many bugs).
- even with that, you still rely on programmers like us to manage some of your
own projects. I mean, We or Zikzakmedia and the other gave you a hand on your
projects (Elsenordelmar, Logiscenter... for us). How would you do without
engineers?
I mean I absolutely do not criticize what you do and I'm happy when we can team
together, but what is your point coming here and telling programming skills are
optional? They are optional if you pay somebody do it for you, otherwise I
don't want to see how you'll migrate your data/version or close you accounting
period.

I mean this is pretty much when you came here to tell hey folk we can integrate
OpenERP in 5 days, and then you Gtalk me during week ends because you are
totally lost with data importation and OpenERP bugs, why do you need to come
and tell it's so easy then? What the benefit of this, getting a ton of noobs
jumping in that will fail their projects and then tell OpenERP is crap? For
your customer to pay you even less days for your projects, so we don't have the
skilled integrators ecosystem that make the product more mature?

I think is important to define what really the customer needs. There is
miriad of little and medium companies where OpenERP estable release + country
localization modules fill perfectly their needs without needed programing for
them.

Of course the smaller the perimeter, the more you can do without coding.

Don't get us wrong, coding is not only about creating new modules to meet
exotic requirements. It's also very much about only getting rid of the nasty
blocker bugs. All versions have critical bugs. On a small scope you can may be
find a version that fit your basic needs. On a larger perimeter, like for
instance when accounting is required, that's impossible (or do you think we
fight on Launchpad bugs just for fun?)

I'm suspicious Spain is not where accounting is the most challenging. But I
know that in France there were much more issues. I bet @Gavin in the US is
totally lost. Now for us in Brazil, we need module such account_tax_include to
respect the fiscality (+ a good deal of other modules). account_tax_include
have rounding bugs such as this one:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/openobject-addons/+bug/510726
Do you really think that's good to tell: hey folk no problem you can go in prod
with this out of the box? Well I don't.

Look at invoicing, sales, purchases modules... there is so many modules
related to same area... is imposible managing and being informed about all
published modules and I'm sure there is a lot of duplicated functionality
built.

OK, we all agree on this; this doesn't scale at all. And that's one of the
reason the community recently have an argument with Tiny because they were
giving no direction tho the community:
http://n3.nabble.com/Simple-things-we-need-from-Tiny-for-better-bug-planning-management-tc132053.html#none

But, the reason why this list is huge, redundant, incompatible is:
- Tiny/Axelor put all their modules here, even when they are not reusable at
all (just check picking_merge or the verticals). The partners on the contrary
keep non reusable modules in other branches or in the addons-community
purgatory without polluting too much the main module list.
You have here some good modules done for real customers with skilled guys, and
you also have some mere proof of concept done by unmotivated /unpaid Indian
developers there were doing something else 3 months before and think they will
do something else in 3 months...
- lot's of the main module do not have the quality we would like. So
unfortunately we should patch them in extra modules. Take the addons pos module
or mrp_repair module (try to handle RMA with that), so that's largely why so
many modules.

So, it's important to get it right: our fight is for a decent quality inside
the core addons that would AVOID us to create so many crappy one-shot modules
(which in turn disperse effort and increase integration cost).

This pretty much because we were not sure Tiny was putting enough care into
merging back the community refactoring of those core modules that we had all
that tensions last weeks and forks were talked about (no serious guy can trust
they can do it alone, they didn't had one single full time guy to package
5.0.7, how would they tackle that refactoring job at the yearly major releases
like 5.2?). This is also a reason why the Tryton fork has been created. Indeed,
lot's of new fancy things were announced, but less than 2 months before the

Re: [Tinyerp-users] Deciding between OpenERP and OpenBravo?