RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
PS David, I'm relieved you have such a cool boss and I hope you can enjoy the rest of your sabbatical. Thanks, whoever-the-heck-you-are, I've been having an excellent time and the childishness we've seen here from the likes of Mark Fink and Paige Thompson haven't impacted my enjoyment of it in the slightest. I'm also happy that I have a smart boss who isn't dismayed by the obvious shenanigans of a bunch of infants who put their own interests far above the _real lives_ of other people. However, one of the things which _does_ disturb me a bit--although I suppose I can understand it--is that some people feel the necessity to hide their identities as a result of the kind of grossly abusive attempts at intimidation that Mark and Paige feel is an appropriate response to rational disagreement with their positions. I'm not ashamed of my opinions: they're mine, and I'm entitled to them. As I said, I'm fairly well-known for being outspoken (but hopefully not irrational), and I don't hide behind a nym out of fear of children whose parents overindulged them. It's terrible that some folks feel the necessity to do so. That's the thing that I've found really _shameful_ on this thread. And if trying to make trouble for someone on their job as a result of an opinion they've expressed doesn't qualify as censorship, I'm not sure what does. Mark and Paige have either never learned, or have managed to ignore, Nietzsche's advice that he who battles monsters should be careful that he does not become a monster himself in the process. I'm pleased that other folks on this list show much better sense. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
A lot of this is non-sense. We'll see if this technological contribution lasts. If it is useful, then so be it. How long it lasts, and how useful it turns out to be, in the end, depends on how many people apply that technique, that's all. On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Christopher Chanchristopher.c...@bradbury.edu.hk wrote: Tim Zakharov wrote: Mark Fink wrote: it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from the default install like Fedora is doing. I just listened to the FLOSS Weekly podcast from May where they interviewed a Fedora developer and he stated Tomboy is installed by default. He argued for the inclusion of MONO into Fedora. oooh! Where is the fedora developers list? When is the show? I'll be ordering bags of chips and bottles of soda! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Like any other descriptive characters, any name can be penned. At any rate, mono is useful, there's a few cases I've come across were mono just did the trick. Of course as a technology itself, there are pros and cons. I can advocate for and against mono. About the opportunities that it brings as much as other thing that might be hindered. Like any thing else. Just needed to be clear, since 'omg' posted right after my last post. I'm not on either end of this debate. Recommending, this list to an arbitration is probably uncalled for. You need to know how to put out a fire. Don't go call a fire man after pitching gasoline on the thing! Now, if you really want to bash things, try to discredit opponents with facts, or find out the facts yourselves. Suffice it to say, there are always sociological relapses when something new comes about. Of course people will express their feelings, even if they are offensive. In the end try not to play with fire. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Hi Mark, I think I understand now why you and the list have been butting heads so much. I'd like to present my theory, then explain how you can be more productive in advocating to developers. At a Fortune 500 company, I would expect that advocacy is very political - it's important to create (the perception of) a group of winners that do what you want, and a group of losers that don't. Competition, and fear of losing out, are very strong incentives for people in those organisations - if they didn't want to win, they wouldn't be in the Fortune 500. Among open source developers, advocacy needs to be much more logical - it's important to explain how doing what you want achieves the developer's goals. Scratching an itch is widely recognised as the most common incentive for open source developers, and any talk that doesn't help them scratch their personal itch isn't productive. Telling open source developers that they should want to scratch a different itch won't work. It's like telling people they should be attracted to a different gender, or should have a different taste in music - you don't get to choose what your interests are. Talking about winning and losing also won't work. Open source is just coming out of a stage where you had to join the losing team in order to get in. In a few years, you might start to see developers appear that wanted to join the winning team, but right now anyone that's been around long enough to be really effective is for OSS whether it wins or loses. Finally, creating rifts between groups won't work. Development is about sharing a bad idea around until it becomes good, so people that like to blacklist those with bad ideas generally don't become developers. Put simply, Fortune 500 advocacy is like Fortune 500 business - confident, aggressive, and victorious. OSS developer advocacy is like OSS development - methodical, inclusive, and accurate. I discussed a specific model elsewhere[1] that could be used for advocacy. It boils down to stating your premise, explaining your reasoning, then arriving at a conclusion. I recommend you try it out, as it will work much better around here. - Andrew [1]https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008533.html -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 19.43 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto: to MONO boosters, MONO is a religion: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/142 To UBUNTU boosters, UBUNTU is a religion. I am not surprised by this. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 20.02 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto: Maybe you should go start an I HATE MONO!!! mailing list, Mark, where you can dispense your bile without fear of having anyone point out that you're doing nothing to add light here, only heat. no wonder you got reported to your boss, david. you are not very resptful of your users and customers. You all are going completely crazy. Reporting to bosses?? Do you think it is RIGHT to risk to ruin a career and a life because of a discussion on the web? If so either please commit suicide or seek for medical assistance, or just rethink. Not only you, everyone who thinks it's ok to send an e-mail to the boss of somebody else to inform him/her about... a flamewar involving an employee. You can spread the voice against mono as much as you want but switching to persecution of other persons life is sick and should be treated. I *know* that I am at risk of being reported to my bosses now. But as they are very good scientists I have no doubt that they will be able to tell what's going on here. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mark Fink continues to scribble: luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over MONO...some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid)... Wasn't it you who was complaining not long ago about personal attacks...? I'll refrain from pointing out the general illiteracy of your message, but it's doubtless apparent to anyone for whom English isn't a second language as well as many for whom it is. Maybe you should go start an I HATE MONO!!! mailing list, Mark, where you can dispense your bile without fear of having anyone point out that you're doing nothing to add light here, only heat. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from the default install like Fedora is doing. A few questions: a) Respect from whom, exactly? You? Paige? b) Why does this matter? Is someone running a contest for most respected Linux distribution? Are there prizes? c) Why don't you just go ahead, use Fedora and let Ubuntu proceed to its (in your view) inevitable doom? Wouldn't that free up a lot of your time for more useful things than inciting conversations a which can't really lead to any productive result on mailing lists about distributions you don't respect? A few related observations: a) Respect, if it matters at all, only matter coming from those who are, themselves, worthy of respect. b) I'd suggest that if there's any meaningful dimension to respect, it might be measured by the number of people who take the time to actually use a given distro. If that's the case, Ubuntu seems to be more respected than Fedora. c) I can point to plenty of things which Miguel and others have done which seem to me to be deeply worthy of respect from my view, starting with GNOME and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I respect your view more than Miguel's? Respect is earned around these parts by doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
no wonder you got reported to your boss, david. you are not very resptful of your users and customers. I'm not sure I'd know where to begin being resptful of someone. I had a resptful sleep last night, though. Neither you nor Paige are my users or my customers. We're all (supposed to be) peers here on this list, and I'm fairly well-known for calling a spade a god-damned shovel when it's appropriate to do so. If you'd like to join Paige in behaving like even more of an infant, go right ahead, uproarious laughter is good for all of us. You're not very _respectful_ of much of anyone as near as I've seen, so it's difficult to see what you're complaining about. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote to MONO boosters, MONO is a religion: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/142 To UBUNTU boosters, UBUNTU is a religion. I am not surprised by this. And to Mono-haters, Mono-hating is a religion. As Mark has been amply demonstrating here. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote no wonder you got reported to your boss, david. you are not very resptful of your users and customers. You all are going completely crazy. Reporting to bosses?? Do you think it is RIGHT to risk to ruin a career and a life because of a discussion on the web? Yes, that's clearly _exactly_ what Mark and Paige think. If so either please commit suicide or seek for medical assistance, or just rethink. Not only you, everyone who thinks it's ok to send an e-mail to the boss of somebody else to inform him/her about... a flamewar involving an employee. You can spread the voice against mono as much as you want but switching to persecution of other persons life is sick and should be treated. I *know* that I am at risk of being reported to my bosses now. But as they are very good scientists I have no doubt that they will be able to tell what's going on here. You're quite right, Vincenzo: that sort of behavior starts at totally uncalled for and only goes rapidly downhill from there. Some people feel that their point of view so completely overrides any other considerations that they completely lose any sense of perspective they might have ever possessed. At that point, they can justify any sort of negative, bad, _evil_ behavior to themselves. They'll try to get you fired, they'll kill your cat, they'll burn down your house, because their viewpoint is more important than _you_ are. And friends, I'm here to tell you, that's just _crazy_. Happily, my management, too, is more than smart enough to recognize a lunatic troll when they see one, and to take messages from such folks without any degree of seriousness whatsoever. Just as they should. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
2009/6/10 Mark Fink mpf...@gmail.com yes it does and the people behind the censorship need to be exposed for what they really are Moderators? As I understand, the Ubuntu forums are for useful, constructive posts that adhere to the Code of Conduct. It would appear to be almost a consensus that those posts were not useful advocacy, and if taken as coming from the Ubuntu community would put Ubuntu in a poor light. If you want an unmoderated forum there are plenty of those, but Developers don't get a free pass either. I've had contributions (code) rejected for a number of reasons: * Use of POSIX in a pure Ansi-C project. * Use of Perl. * Disagreement as to whether my feature is actually useful. * Feature became obsolete by time it was ready to be merged. There was even a prominent developer who literally broke his back (if you consider a injury a break) working on the Kernel, and never had his patches accepted. Even so, I have to say I find advocacy harder than submitting code. First of all advocacy requires challenging the believes of others while maintaining their respect. I do not find this an easy task. First of all, although a human won't crash if you miss a semi-colon, excessive spelling and grammatical mistakes will cost respect. But in advocacy, formal correctness is not nearly enough. If you don't respect them they will lose respect for you, and won't listen to you when there are so many others to listen to. Perhaps most importantly, everything that makes it harder to submit code makes it harder to submit *bad* code. 90% of your mistakes, in code, will be found by the compiler. More will be found by basic testing. Feedback from reviewers helps you ensure that the code you are writing is actually useful to the intended recipients. Advocacy may seem easy. There are no compile time errors. However this just means that it is just that much harder to check for problems in your advocacy. For example: ...obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees... Presumably the people you are trying to convince are people who disagree with you, but who are not nefarious agents of some malevolent entity. These people *know* that they themselves are not secretly Novell employees*, so they know that this is not why they disagree with you. To them it will be clear that this is an Ad hominem attack, even if they don't use those words. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem So your contribution was rejected. This is a everyday occurrence for a developer. You have the same options 1) Learn from the feedback given, try to adapt your contribution so it is accepted. 2) Learn from the feedback given, take your contributions elsewhere. 3) Take your contributions elsewhere. I'd recommend (2). For starters moderation isn't really on topic for ubuntu-devel-discuss. You could possibly discuss moderation on sounder, but it seems to be have been discussed to death already. Also, the problem with unmoderated forums, is that few people read but a few of posts. But even if they do read your post they are unlikely to be persuaded... I doubt that a post that doesn't pass moderation is likely to be very persuasive. I guess the point I am getting at it the moderators are helping you and the anti-mono position by filtering out posts the don't meet basic standards. There was one time I was glad I posted to a moderated forum, because the post I wrote wasn't exactly inflamitory, but it wasn't that constructive either and all and all I was glad that my less admirable prose wasn't permanently archived on the web. * Of course, if you argue eloquently enough you could perhaps persuade Novell employees of your position. Just because you work at a company doesn't mean you agree with all their decisions; and someday they might even be able to reverse some of those decisions. I don't think is likely, but insulting them isn't going to make it any more likely. -- John C. McCabe-Dansted PhD Student University of Western Australia -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mark Fink wrote: it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from the default install like Fedora is doing. I just listened to the FLOSS Weekly podcast from May where they interviewed a Fedora developer and he stated Tomboy is installed by default. He argued for the inclusion of MONO into Fedora. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:58 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Mark Fink continues to scribble: luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over MONO...some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid)... Wasn't it you who was complaining not long ago about personal attacks...? I'll refrain from pointing out the general illiteracy of your message, but it's doubtless apparent to anyone for whom English isn't a second language as well as many for whom it is. I can't believe that I got drawn into this, but here's my two cents. This thread has been about personal attacks from the beginning. In the same breath as talking about supposed censorship the OP was also calling for banning a volunteer Ubuntu developer who simply works on mono-related packaging. (Since there's been a lot of lip service about some sort of wider respect from the Linux community, I think it's worth mentioning that said developer's collaboration with Debian is a great model for gaining respect.) He was also calling for the firing of a Canonical employee for simply having written a program in C# before being hired by Canonical, where as far as I can tell he isn't involved in any work around mono at all. Nearly every message from the OP has accused that Novell or Microsoft employees are some how infiltrating Ubuntu with out any evidence at all. While there might be merits in discussing the inclusion of mono in a default Ubuntu install or issues about forum moderation, neither has been the OP's real purpose. All he has done from the beginning is make slanderous claims that verge on paranoid delusions. If anyone who hadn't made up their mind on this issue has read this thread, I can't imagine they would come away with a positive view of the anti-mono viewpoint. The OP has done his cause a great disservice. Don't bother directly replying to me. I've wasted all together too much time that I could have used to do something productive for Ubuntu by reading this tripe - Andrew Starr-Bochicchio Ubuntu Developer -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I hope mono wins On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Mackenzie Morgan maco...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:43:37 pm Mark Fink wrote: obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO We're mostly students, I think. Computer science, engineering, law, and an ex-mod is a botany student. There's also a guy that works on Xorg for Canonical. I'm both a student and (for my job) working on some open source software that's as old as the GNU project itself. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Christopher Chan wrote: These are about 'standards'. Can there really be a technical argument between using say the metric system versus the foot/yard or the ounce/pound? Yes: 1) state your technical requirements 2) state the relevant properties of each standard 3) argue about which properties best match which requirements 4) profit For example: 1) I want a system of measurements that: * minimises the amount of learning necessary in schools * is controlled by an international body which represents my interests * allows easy comparisons between different quantities 2) Imperial units: * Older people know Imperial, they can spend the time to teach kids * Kids who have learnt from (grand)parents needn't learn in school * Imperial uses multiple words per unit (inch, foot, yard) * Imperial is controlled by the British government * Imperial is widely use in places that won't go away (e.g. roads) * Older people will never know anything but imperial * You can't make comparisons unless you know what the quantities mean Metric units: * Metric only requires knowledge of base 10, except to count time * Kids already need to learn base 10, and to count time * Metric uses a single word per unit (metre, litre) * Metric is controlled by SI * Because it uses base 10, metric is very easy to compare 3) If we started over from scratch, the benefits of imperial would be moot. But we're not, so moving away from imperial would cause 50+ years of difficulty comparing quantities. But if the move to metric is successfully completed, we'll have hundreds or thousands of years of upside. 4) Being an optimist about how much time we've got on this planet, I vote metric. Intelligent people may disagree, especially if they have different requirements. I respect those that disagree, and accept that the requirements I've laid out do not necessarily reflect the requirements of the Ubuntu project. Contentious issues can be argued civilly, you just need to be a bit careful about it. When discussing topics that can get religious, please consider a premise-reasoning-conclusion model like the above. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno lun, 08/06/2009 alle 20.50 -0300, Derek Broughton ha scritto: That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. Are you really just fink using different nym? Professional trolling here at work. Do the communist have to do with the plan? Just to know on what side I want to be :) V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
You're welcome David, anytime you want to set yourself up for that go for it. I can't promise I'll be here to hand your ass to you after you've so carelessly lost track of it, unfortunately. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:36 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my out of the office advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off-list. We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven or so, hm? __Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:26, Paige Thompson erra...@devel.ws wrote: well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to that message. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow... Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to free software. As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here... -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.wserra...@devel.ws -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Scott James Remnant wrote: Why should Ubuntu actively prevent a developer from writing software in C# if they wish? That software may not even be intended to be shipped in Ubuntu, what if they want to use Ubuntu as the basis for an application that happens to be written in C#? Do you seriously believe we shouldn't allow this? For that reason, I actively and passionately disagree with any argument that a C# Development environment such as Mono should not be provided for Ubuntu. Although I've uttered scepticism towards Mono before, I actually agree with that. I know of at least one example where a incarnated .NET programmer discovered that he could port his work easily to Linux and do his work there, and make his program available on the lab Linux workstations. On the patent concerns, the only thing I'd say is that patents are inherently uninteresting unless they are being enforced by their holders. Since Microsoft are not currently enforcing any C#-related patents--indeed is it even known whether they hold any?--that doesn't appear to be a concern. The main fear wrt to Mono is that IF Ubuntu and other distributions came to rely on killer apps programmed in C#, we'd be extremely vulnerable to the kind of FUD Microsoft has a history of spreading. In fact, just threatening with repercussions against users of the distro might be enough to scare corporate and business users away. If I were Balmer, that's what I'd do; why risk losing a patent case when you can use FUD forever with the same result? On the other hand, we should be careful not destroying our community with hateful flamewars, and creating divisions where there are none. So let's not create a problem before it actually arises. We really must believe in the strength of the FOSS community. If Microsoft indeed did pursue a patent case, the FOSS community would be able to work around it quicker than they can say pay us. Let's not succumb to fear. All of us are believers of freedom. Consequently, we cannot censor packages that otherwise fulfil the DFSG. What will be the next thing then? Banning Firefox because it has an icon of a fox twisting in agony with its tail on fire? If users want to use Mono packages, they should be free to do so. If users don't want them, they can install the mononono package [1] to help keep them off their system. Cheers, Morten [1] http://tim.thechases.com/mononono/ -- Morten Kjeldgaard m...@ubuntu.com Ubuntu MOTU Developer GPG Key ID: 404825E7 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my out of the office advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off- list. We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven or so, hm? __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:26, Paige Thompson erra...@devel.ws wrote: well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to that message. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow... Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to free software. As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here... -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 09.48 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto: that's a LOT of bloat also programs like Gnote are GPL3 so you are protected from patents Come on this is the only fair criticism that I have seen until now; I think we still don't ship timidity fonts and have broken midi because of space on the cd, now I don't know how many standard ubuntu users really need tomboy and f-spot in the default install but certainly half of the ubuntuers I know don't use those. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 12.14 -0400, Christopher Olah ha scritto: It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming... We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored, like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong. Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People who can't tell the difference will keep using a different google, but there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the past). So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution. If it was easy I'd already have done that :) Otherwise we have to stick with the anyways good level of trust that we have on the ubuntu entity. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People who can't tell the difference will keep using a different google, but there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the past). So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution. The fact that censorship is an intrinsic risk to any centralized Linux distro doesn't make it any more appropriate. If censorship is occurring, it needs to stop. Still, the idea of a decentralized Linux distro is cool. You could have it work on a Web Of Trust It sort of reminds me of Linus Torvalds Google Talk on Git: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 If it was easy I'd already have done that :) Otherwise we have to stick with the anyways good level of trust that we have on the ubuntu entity. And with that trust comes scrutiny. Christopher PS. Sorry, Vincenzo, for the double copies. I forgot to reply to all the first time... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 5:26:17 pm Paige Thompson wrote: well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. Well that wasn't very polite... -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Christopher Olahchristopherolah...@gmail.com wrote: It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming... We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored, like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong. this is what happens when you promote MONO boosters to positions of power, they will poison the distro and ban the people who don't mindlessly follow them like sheep to MONO boosters, MONO is a religion: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/142 luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over MONO and follow it like a religion. however, this is a threat to all of us because they convince many people to use the trojan horse that is MONO and as you can see on the ubuntuforums they have fooled many many people into thinking MONO is ok but its not obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO this behavior is unacceptable and they need to be kicked out for their bias -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:47 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from the default install like Fedora is doing. A few questions: a) Respect from whom, exactly? You? Paige? the Linux community b) Why does this matter? Is someone running a contest for most respected Linux distribution? Are there prizes? no but there are losers like microvell (and ubuntu if it doesn't change) c) Why don't you just go ahead, use Fedora and let Ubuntu proceed to its (in your view) inevitable doom? Wouldn't that free up a lot of your time for more useful things than inciting conversations a which can't really lead to any productive result on mailing lists about distributions you don't respect? I am trying to help A few related observations: a) Respect, if it matters at all, only matter coming from those who are, themselves, worthy of respect. Roy Schestowitz and Richard Stallman say that MONO is poisonware. are they not respectable? b) I'd suggest that if there's any meaningful dimension to respect, it might be measured by the number of people who take the time to actually use a given distro. If that's the case, Ubuntu seems to be more respected than Fedora. ego will get you nowhere c) I can point to plenty of things which Miguel and others have done which seem to me to be deeply worthy of respect from my view, starting with GNOME only because he couldn't get hired by M$ like he wanted and then he goes and creates GNOME while badmouthing KDE and splitting the Linux community. with friends like him, who needs enemies? and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I respect your view more than Miguel's? Respect is earned around these parts by doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists. not all of us can be programmers, so we contribute in other ways like advocating. people like me and Roy Schestowitz and others at BN are very important for making people aware of the truth so that M$ can't destroy Linux. I've personally advocated Linux to Fortune 500 companies. what have /you/ done? -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:58 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Mark Fink continues to scribble: luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over MONO...some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid)... Wasn't it you who was complaining not long ago about personal attacks...? I'll refrain from pointing out the general illiteracy of your message, but it's doubtless apparent to anyone for whom English isn't a second language as well as many for whom it is. Maybe you should go start an I HATE MONO!!! mailing list, Mark, where you can dispense your bile without fear of having anyone point out that you're doing nothing to add light here, only heat. no wonder you got reported to your boss, david. you are not very resptful of your users and customers. -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Christopher Olahchristopherolah...@gmail.com wrote: Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People who can't tell the difference will keep using a different google, but there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the past). So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution. The fact that censorship is an intrinsic risk to any centralized Linux distro doesn't make it any more appropriate. If censorship is occurring, it needs to stop. yes it does and the people behind the censorship need to be exposed for what they really are -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:56:34 pm Mark Fink wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:47 PM, David and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I respect your view more than Miguel's? Respect is earned around these parts by doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists. not all of us can be programmers, so we contribute in other ways like advocating. There is no can't; there is only won't even bother to try. Spend as much time learning Python as you've spent arguing here and insulting us all, and you'd be pretty far along by now. people like me and Roy Schestowitz and others at BN are very important for making people aware of the truth so that M$ can't destroy Linux. If Linux is to succeed, it will do so with or without Microsoft technologies. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:43:37 pm Mark Fink wrote: obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO We're mostly students, I think. Computer science, engineering, law, and an ex-mod is a botany student. There's also a guy that works on Xorg for Canonical. I'm both a student and (for my job) working on some open source software that's as old as the GNU project itself. perhaps neighborlee or roy schestowitz should be an ubuntu forum moderator to bring fairness to the forums? -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Good Morning, On Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:36:29 -0400 Mark Fink mpf...@gmail.com wrote: [...removed totally annoying article...] As I'm not a MONO Fanboy myself...and sometimes boycott novell does write good articles...but please... Mono gives us a good way into the MS front...this could also be a point of view. And regarding Canonical...I wonder if Mark or Jane hired a lot of MONO people...I do think they have more python devs on their payrole then other companies... anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in the first place. We can argue about MS doesn't give us any rights on using it patent wise (only to Novell) but this has really nothing to do with MONO...we have so many sources in our distros, which do have patent issues...why don't you scream about that? Oh, sorry, you want to watch videos, or listen to your MP3s...damn I forgot. So please, power up your brain first... Thx, \sh -- | Stephan '\sh' Hermann| OSS Dev / SysAdmin | | JID: s...@linux-server.org | http://www.sourcecode.de/ | | GPG ID: 0xC098EFA8 | http://leonov.tv/ | | FP: 3D8B 5138 0852 DA7A B83F DCCB C189 E733 C098 EFA8 | -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
as benfrank said yesterday on boycottnovell: The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them. Easy as falling over. Not wanting to even discuss such a simple solution makes it credible that Ubuntu is being corrupted by Mono fans. IMono is controversial, and who needs the bloated Mono runtime just to run a few marginal apps? The importance of Mono to Ubuntu is greatly overblown by a small but very determined minority. MONO /is/ controversial, so why are you guys even shipping it? it's only because MONO people have poisoned your minds and infiltrated ubuntu to get power to enforce their will. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 07 June 2009 7:48:45 pm Mark Fink wrote: this is what the MONO developers want you to believe, but no one really wants MONO. users still using MONO only do so because they've been tricked by miquel co who worship m$ and will do anything to help them destroy linux. Hi :) Mono-based application user here. Guess why I use Mono-based apps? It's not the reason you gave. It's because there happen to exist some very good Mono-based applications. In the case of Tomboy v. Gnote...well, my experience dealing with the developers of the two applications along with the existence of a LaTeX plugin for the Mono one keeps me using Tomboy. F-Spot? Well, the only thing close is iPhoto, and last I tried iPhoto, F-Spot was more featureful. Now, I'm all for the effort to write better applications in other languages-- really, better applications in any language. Diversity is good! Competition is good! Unfortunately, I don't really see anyone stepping up to the plate with a photo manager that can compete with F-Spot. And Gnote doesn't really compete with Tomboy--emulation (that misses out on many of the features) isn't exactly innovation. BasKet and Zim though, I've heard they're very good. BasKet is for KDE though, and Zim, while very featureful, is also harder to navigate and asks some rather daunting questions in its Preferences (for example, full path to preferred text editor)--a fine tool for hackers, but not something I'd tell my brother to use for taking notes in class. Simply: what works well? At the moment, there are a handful of Mono applications which are the Best of Breed in their respective categories. If you've got some applications up your sleeve that can seriously compete with-- and beat!--any of the applications in the default Ubuntu install on technical grounds such as number and quality of useful features and the software's usability, I'd like to see them. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
you sound like a typical M$ appologist. do you sleep well at night? hope they are paying you well. Clearly Mark doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase personal attack... Physician, heal thyself. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday 08 June 2009 7:49:32 am Mark Fink wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermanns...@sourcecode.de wrote: anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in the first place. no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also helps adict users to it. Without Mono, there is no Moonlight. Without Moonlight, you get users whinging that they can't watch the Democratic National Convention* on Linux therefore Linux is stupid and Windows is good. Moonlight works independently of Mono as far as I know. Oh well, I don't have it on my system. As soon as the major video sites move to video (and they are preparing!), Flash will be gone too. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Luke L. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 9:39:31 am Mark Fink wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Instead of whinging, why don't you write BETTER replacements for those applications in C, if it bothers you so much? Whinging is simply not constructive. people already have http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Mono_Applications Please. GThumb as a serious competitor to G-Spot? You've got to be joking. Gwenview DigiKam are both KDE apps, so they are not valid answers for a GNOME distro. Besides that, Gwenview isn't a photo album manager--it's the equivalent of Eye of GNOME, just a viewer. And I already mentioned the troubles with replacing Tomboy with any of those. Zim is suitable for hackers, not for people like my brother. KNotes BasKet are both KDE apps, unsuitable for GNOME distros. And Gnote is most certainly not better than Tomboy. It's an incomplete emulation of the original that breaks the formats used by Tomboy. And do you know how Hub responded to my bug report about him breaking the format's compatibility? He essentially said he was trying to lock users in. He doesn't want users to have the choice to go back to Tomboy. The Tomboy developer's response was to change Tomboy to accept Hub's broken notes for the sake of keeping users' choice in-tact. Now, which falls more into the category of freedom-loving? The developer who uses a patented technology which is no more a threat than MP3 to write software that doesn't bind the user, or the developer who uses unpatented technology to bind the user to him? -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke Llukehasnon...@gmail.com wrote: This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: They can't even create their own application framework! yes, this is one of the MANY reasons why MONO should be removed -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:00:27 am Mark Fink wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke Llukehasnon...@gmail.com wrote: This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: They can't even create their own application framework! yes, this is one of the MANY reasons why MONO should be removed Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mackenzie Morgan wrote: Jo is a nice fellow, met him at UDS. Didn't seem very much to be infiltrating...more like sitting around being cheerful and chatting with whatever folks sat down. Oh sure. That's what he _wants_ you to think -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. Ubuntu is supposed to be a collection of amazing free software, not a gratis Microsoft Windows. Consider that the Windows platform nowadays *is* .NET. Win32 is deprecated. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:55:32 am Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: And in using Flash, we're Adobe technology users (even if, like I do, you use swfdec instead of Adobe's plugin). Sometimes pragmatism is needed to gain enough users for the critical mass that would let us push back. That's different. Flash is ubiquitous on the internet. And it's not even installed by default. When video gets implemented by the major sites, Flash will get installed far less. IIRC, video is: 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML 2) no longer requiring OGG Theora #2 just gets us right back to the old problem where we need fifty billion codecs to play anything on the internet. And even if we were to use Flash technology, that's not the same as using Microsoft technology. Ubuntu's main competitor is Microsoft. Using someone else's dogfood (Mono) because your own dogfood (Java) is crap is not good advertising. I would argue that our main competitor is Apple. People jumping ship from Microsoft tend to go to Apple. We're here to show there's an alternative to that jump. Jumping from Apple to Microsoft is not as common. Mono is used for two applications: a photo manager and a note-taking program. Those programs are hardly a selling point of Ubuntu. And therefore, the use of Mono is unwarranted. Yet the desktop would be incomplete without them and they have no *good* replacements. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
This is clearly a not invented here syndrome. please read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here I'm a software engineer, I personally tried both java and .net (I don't like python very much because it's easy to get things out of control) I don't care where a technology is created, but what are the advantages I prefer .net because it has more language expressiveness than java (there are more constructs which can be used), and it runs faster (for instance in linux eclipse is really 10x slower than windows), and it's better integrated into gtk. I'm waiting for a new version of java with all the .net features and speed. In this case I would replace mono -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 11:35:15 am Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: IIRC, video is: 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML Which is irrelevant. Nobody uses XHTML. The kind of fake XHTML that some web designers use can use video without problem. XHTML 1.0 Strict can use video? Microsoft is the market leader. Ergo, main competitor. And if Apple were the market leader, we're still free Windows, which is not something an Apple user cares about. But which two OSes are gaining users and which is losing them? We get to squabble with Apple over who gets the users that leave Microsoft. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Nicolò Chieffo wrote: This is clearly a not invented here syndrome. please read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here I'm a software engineer, I personally tried both java and .net (I don't like python very much because it's easy to get things out of control) I don't care where a technology is created, but what are the advantages I prefer .net because it has more language expressiveness than java (there are more constructs which can be used), and it runs faster (for instance in linux eclipse is really 10x slower than windows), It might be slower. 10x? No way... I'm waiting for a new version of java with all the .net features and speed. In this case I would replace mono LOL. I've been waiting for a Java like that for almost 15 years. It keeps getting _bigger_ not faster. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here... Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here... Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to that message. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow... Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to free software. As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here... -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Where? See, I demonstrated how exactly wine _is_ in Ubuntu, and you counter by throwing out some vague concepts without a single package name. Wine is in _universe_. That's an Ubuntu repository. Windows media codecs have a package that allows _you_ to download from an another source. It's a pretty huge distinction. Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. The repositories are part of a default install - they get added to your default sources. Things like wine aren't omitted from the CD for _policy_ reasons, they're omitted for _space_. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. Are you really just fink using different nym? and I'm *not* Mark Fink. OK, I guess you're sure, but that doesn't make your argument valid. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: sorry stephan for getting this twice, didn't hit reply-to-mailinglist Oh well...in the 80ties/90ties when Java was invented and was used by more people then Turbo Pascal in no time, I said the same...It was closed source, and had too much of Sun in it.. KDE/Qt we should start a wall of fame =D Probably not on anybody's radar but let's add: Firebirdsql/Interbase (is this about closed software going opensource? :-D) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:17 AM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Basically, it just needs the same love as Mono. One thing I think I can state with certainty about free and open source software development is that demanding that a bunch of other folks drop what they're doing and give love to something else on your behalf never works. Maybe your time, and Mark's, would be better spent writing a credible F-Spot replacement if you think that's something that needs to be done; certainly don't expect anyone else to do it because F-Spot happens to upset you. And see what I wrote half a day ago: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Mark Finkmpf...@gmail.com wrote: I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. this is not a laughing matter and the fact that you slandering roy schestowitz only goes to show you are probably part of the problem. These accusations are not helping your case. If you want to really solve the problem you need to: * improve the Gnome-Java bindings and get them in Ubuntu * make a Java equivalent of F-Spot and Tomboy * push for replacement of these apps and the framework I'm all for replacing Mono with Java, but the problems need to be fixed. Complaining is not going to do that. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. On second thoughts, don't bother. You're clearly just a troll, after all. and you can install them through Add/Remove. The codecs aren't installed because of patent problems. The codecs aren't even in the repositories _because of patent problems_. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. You've now pushed me to the extreme, because I really don't have a Nobody pushed you - we rebutted poorly thought arguments and you accused us of arguing semantics (which is not quite the insult you seem to think). If you continue this ridiculous rant, you'll be shouting into the bit bucket...plonk -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. What's your argument against my position? That I maybe made a semantic cock-up in a throwaway comparison? That's a great one... How does that relate to Mono? The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. If the codecs are not in the repos, then I'm amazed as to how they got onto my system. Clearly, the ffmpeg project (yeah, universe) doesn't exist. Besides, how is the exact location of the codecs relevant? I can install them in the same way as I install Wine. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. Slashdot is not the source. Look one click further and you'll find the actual source. You just fell in the same trap as the Wikipedia naysayers. It's just easy reference. And if you don't want to see this as the motivation for not including Wine, then so be it. I think it's pretty clear why Wine is not supposed to be on the default install. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I sorry, just wanted to be a part of the lols On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. What's your argument against my position? That I maybe made a semantic cock-up in a throwaway comparison? That's a great one... How does that relate to Mono? The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. If the codecs are not in the repos, then I'm amazed as to how they got onto my system. Clearly, the ffmpeg project (yeah, universe) doesn't exist. Besides, how is the exact location of the codecs relevant? I can install them in the same way as I install Wine. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. Slashdot is not the source. Look one click further and you'll find the actual source. You just fell in the same trap as the Wikipedia naysayers. It's just easy reference. And if you don't want to see this as the motivation for not including Wine, then so be it. I think it's pretty clear why Wine is not supposed to be on the default install. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
As a reader of this list I have to confess that the tone of the emails being sent appear to have degenerated into name calling and I have to confess that I'm not particularly interested to spend my voluntary spare time reading messages between people abusing one another. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that a technical argument can be had in a civilised tone. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
2009/6/9 Derek Broughton de...@pointerstop.ca Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. I don't have strong feelings about Mono, but the OP suggests: The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them... Sounds much like the current policy of Restricted drivers. So from the POV of the OP getting rid of mono means removing it from the default install. A number of people have interpreted it to mean removing it from the repos, but doesn't appear to be what the OP wants, indeed AFAICT noone here has /specifically/ suggested removing Mono from the repos. To put things in perspective, mono requires 15MiB in .deb form and 44MiB installed. Thats about 2% of the space on the CD. If, hypothetically, Ubuntu was prevented from distributing wine, at least we wouldn't have to rebuild 'stable' CD-images. -- John C. McCabe-Dansted total=0 dpkg -l | grep mono | sed 's/[[:alnum:]]* //' | sed 's/ .*$//' | sed s/[[:space:]]//g | while read f do grep Package: $f /var/lib/apt/lists/*_pub_ubuntu_dists_jaunty_main_binary-amd64_Packages -A20 #done | grep ^Size: | sed 's/[^[:digit:]]//g' | while read size ; do total=$(($total+$size)) ; echo $size $total $(($total/1024/1024))MiB done | grep ^Installed-Size: | sed 's/[^[:digit:]]//g' | while read size ; do total=$(($total+$size)) ; echo $size $total $(($total/1024))MiB done -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that a technical argument can be had in a civilised tone. Ah, but you see...these are NOT technical arguments. These are about 'standards'. Can there really be a technical argument between using say the metric system versus the foot/yard or the ounce/pound? That is why it is easy for flamewars to start when it comes to bash vs c-shell vs korn or c vs c++ or whatever combination you wish because in the end...it is about 'standards'. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mark Fink wrote: A short while ago, Roy Schestowitz wrote http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/01/banning-opposition-to-mono/ which has some disturbing evidence of MONO supporters actively censoring good honest and concerned people such as Neighborlee on the ubuntu forums and today I read some even MORE disturbing news in http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/opposition-to-mono-by-default/ this is OUTRAGEOUS! And on top of that, Roy has noted that you guys are actively hiring MONO developers like the GNOME-DO developer!?!? No wonder your distro is so corrupt! What's next!?!? I never thought I'd live to see the day where canoical would side with the asshole trolls such as the MONO camp. I'm disgusted and you guys should be ashamed. I hope you get rid of MONO. only then can your reputations be restored. - a concerned ubuntu user theres always going to be people believing theres some kind of conspiracy going on, hence the boycott novell site. im afraid your the only one damaging your reputation by posting rubbish from that site here. steve -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Steve Reillysfrei...@roadrunner.com wrote: Mark Fink wrote: A short while ago, Roy Schestowitz wrote http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/01/banning-opposition-to-mono/ which has some disturbing evidence of MONO supporters actively censoring good honest and concerned people such as Neighborlee on the ubuntu forums and today I read some even MORE disturbing news in http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/opposition-to-mono-by-default/ this is OUTRAGEOUS! And on top of that, Roy has noted that you guys are actively hiring MONO developers like the GNOME-DO developer!?!? No wonder your distro is so corrupt! What's next!?!? I never thought I'd live to see the day where canoical would side with the asshole trolls such as the MONO camp. I'm disgusted and you guys should be ashamed. I hope you get rid of MONO. only then can your reputations be restored. - a concerned ubuntu user theres always going to be people believing theres some kind of conspiracy going on, hence the boycott novell site. im afraid your the only one damaging your reputation by posting rubbish from that site here. steve I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. this is not a laughing matter and the fact that you slandering roy schestowitz only goes to show you are probably part of the problem. -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Mark Finkmpf...@gmail.com wrote: I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. this is not a laughing matter and the fact that you slandering roy schestowitz only goes to show you are probably part of the problem. These accusations are not helping your case. If you want to really solve the problem you need to: * improve the Gnome-Java bindings and get them in Ubuntu * make a Java equivalent of F-Spot and Tomboy * push for replacement of these apps and the framework I'm all for replacing Mono with Java, but the problems need to be fixed. Complaining is not going to do that. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I hope you get rid of MONO. only then can your reputations be restored. I'm sorry... You want Ubuntu to drop a FOSS program because it's developers are allegedly being problematic? I can't follow this train of thought. I don't think Mono is a particularly useful language myself, but people are using it and Canonical (and the FOSS community at large) not providing an implementation would just make people more locked into MS. I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. I might not be Steve, but I think you're over reacting... And argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy, anyways. the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. I haven't had time to research your claims, but I'm inclined to say that if people are being censored it can be rectified without this sort of inflammatory response. Namely, the fact that people are aware of these claims means that situation will be rectified. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Christopher Olahchristopherolah...@gmail.com wrote: I hope you get rid of MONO. only then can your reputations be restored. I'm sorry... You want Ubuntu to drop a FOSS program because it's developers are allegedly being problematic? I can't follow this train of thought. I don't think Mono is a particularly useful language myself, but people are using it and Canonical (and the FOSS community at large) not providing an implementation would just make people more locked into MS. this is what the MONO developers want you to believe, but no one really wants MONO. users still using MONO only do so because they've been tricked by miquel co who worship m$ and will do anything to help them destroy linux. this is all well documented at boycottnovell.com I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. I might not be Steve, but I think you're over reacting... no, I'm not. this is very serious. And argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy, anyways. the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. I haven't had time to research your claims, but I'm inclined to say that if people are being censored it can be rectified without this sort of inflammatory response. Namely, the fact that people are aware of these claims means that situation will be rectified. this is all well documented by the articles I linked to. please read them so that you can rectify this. -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mark Fink wrote: MONO is a poor imitation of java, so why use MONO!? Shows what I know I guess - I thought it was a poor imitation of .net... I was a java evangelist for years. Too bad it never lived up to its promise. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Mark Finkmpf...@gmail.com wrote: you sound like a typical M$ appologist. do you sleep well at night? hope they are paying you well. Let's inject a little humour here. When making arguments, it's vitally important that your language doesn't make me think of this: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/7/22/ . This message brought to you by the bad boys of punctuation. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
there is proof posted in both articles There are specific events pointed to. I don't think your realize the severity of the accusations you're making (or supporting...). You are accusing members of the FOSS community of deliberately censoring and suppressing people. You are asking for people to be fired. There must be a high burden of evidence for that sort of thing. Specific examples are not strong enough. For example, Now, watch this from Brainstorm. People make the suggestion that Mono should not be included by default and the page gets frozen with the following reason: This entry was marked as not being an idea the 3 June 09. If this is a bug report, please use the Ubuntu bug tracker. How is this not an idea? Sounds like an excuse to silence ‘dissent’. One of our readers (unrelated to the above) told us this yesterday: Hi Roy, the other day I noticed you linked to my brainstorm thread about keeping RB and not moving to Banshee, I mostly did it because I like RB and Banshee, besides of bringing a Mono dependency, is not really as good. The thread, out of sudden was declared a ‘duplicate’, what’s worse is that the votes were not just locked (like what happens in brainstorm when something is marked as duplicate) but completely removed: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20016/ It used to have many votes for ‘Keep Rhythmbox” and many negative votes for “Move to Banshee” , it seems that the Mono zealots have acquired too much control of ubuntu brainstorm this is a disgrace. - http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/opposition-to-mono-by-default/ These sort of things are honestly not that uncommon on Ubuntu Brainstorm, in my limited experience. It (seems to me that it) is the result of too many posting ideas that are often not enough people to administer it. Thus, it is easy for accidents to occur. This isn't necessarily censorship. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Sunday 07 June 2009 7:48:45 pm Mark Fink wrote: this is what the MONO developers want you to believe, but no one really wants MONO. users still using MONO only do so because they've been tricked by miquel co who worship m$ and will do anything to help them destroy linux. Hi :) Mono-based application user here. Guess why I use Mono-based apps? It's not the reason you gave. It's because there happen to exist some very good Mono-based applications. In the case of Tomboy v. Gnote...well, my experience dealing with the developers of the two applications along with the existence of a LaTeX plugin for the Mono one keeps me using Tomboy. F-Spot? Well, the only thing close is iPhoto, and last I tried iPhoto, F-Spot was more featureful. Now, I'm all for the effort to write better applications in other languages-- really, better applications in any language. Diversity is good! Competition is good! Unfortunately, I don't really see anyone stepping up to the plate with a photo manager that can compete with F-Spot. And Gnote doesn't really compete with Tomboy--emulation (that misses out on many of the features) isn't exactly innovation. BasKet and Zim though, I've heard they're very good. BasKet is for KDE though, and Zim, while very featureful, is also harder to navigate and asks some rather daunting questions in its Preferences (for example, full path to preferred text editor)--a fine tool for hackers, but not something I'd tell my brother to use for taking notes in class. Simply: what works well? At the moment, there are a handful of Mono applications which are the Best of Breed in their respective categories. If you've got some applications up your sleeve that can seriously compete with-- and beat!--any of the applications in the default Ubuntu install on technical grounds such as number and quality of useful features and the software's usability, I'd like to see them. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Sunday 07 June 2009 8:22:41 pm Mark Fink wrote:
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Christopher
So, your saying that theres not a single corporation that has ${Vital
Application} written in .net? I'm not saying that it was a good
choice, but that is the way it is and Ubuntu not supporting it makes
it difficult for them to leave MS.
but that's not how MONO is being used. it is being used to poison our
desktops with patented M$ technology with junk like banshee and tomboy
and f-spot. if I wanted *.dll and *.exe's on my system I would just
run WINDOWS
Filename extensions are how you choose your OS? Huh...alright, well, that's a
new one. You know I can name a shell script with .exe at the end and still
have the first line be #! /bin/bash right?
but they are the people that are infiltrating ubuntu and canonical
people like directhex and the gnome-do developer I forget the name
Jo is a nice fellow, met him at UDS. Didn't seem very much to be
infiltrating...more like sitting around being cheerful and chatting with
whatever folks sat down.
- How strong is the evidence for these accusations?
there is proof posted in both articles
Please reread. The question was not where is the proof? but rather *how
strong* is the proof?
- Who is in a position to rectify this?
I don't know that's why I'm writing here to get the MONO people kicked out
Ah, but that would be exclusionary and so...un-Ubuntu...
--
Mackenzie Morgan
http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com
apt-get moo
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