I just started a�petition on the White House petitions site, We
the People.� Will you sign�it? http://wh.gov/U3Uw
John. Thanks so much. I also appreciate your great comment at petition
site, I hope we can get to the point to get the change state
by state if not through the federal
government.�
Can we connect on Facebook? You can
link to my Facebook page through icon atop MetricPioneer.com because I
think
MetricPioneer dot com has metric-only tape measures for sale for only
ten dollars each (free shipping) originally acquired straight from Paris
France via bulk purchase. David Pearl�
I have a FastCap 5m
tape which is marked in mm only on both edges of the
tape
measure. There are a few custom
-labels-usa/JRSbQFHS
--
This mail is sent via contact form on Metric Pioneer
http://metricpioneer.com
The article
starts off with: Herersquo;s a quick quiz: I weigh 71 kilograms,
and am about 1.82 meters tall�
I think the common
way of measuring human height is, for example, 182 cm, but not as the
example given in the article. I think the person writing the article
should have done a little
When my wife and I were in la France last summer, we bought several
weight scales (kilograms only) along with metric-only tape measures and
thermometers. The scales are not digital, so no batteries are needed. We
have six left for sale on MetricPioneer.com just in case anyone is
interested.
Eugene. It is just a regular weight scale from Europe, so I am at a
loss as to how to answer your question about newtons.
Price and
shipping details are available at MetricPioneer.com
Shipping is free
this month. I ship via United States Postal Service.
MetricPioneer,
What is your price
Some of the forms that now serve to distinguish American from British
spelling (color for colour, center for centre,
traveler for traveller, etc.) were introduced by Noah
Webster himself; others are due to spelling tendencies in Britain from the
17th century until the present day (for example,
Thanks Mr Trusten for sharing this with us.
I posted your message
on MetricPioneer Facebook page. Keep up the good work.
David Pearl
MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
Dear Boston Center NWS
Officials,
I am following this potentially historic storm for two reasons: I
was
born and raised in
�
My signature is there:�
�
D. P.
Salem, OR
January 22, 2013
Signature # 3
Hi Everybody:Evidently there was something wrong with the link I
sent out
earlier. Please help us get the FPLA petition visible on the White
House
website. We
by a reply to this email or through Metric Pioneer
Contact
Us.
Very informative, Mr Jakuba.
Your ton article is a good refresher
course form me.
I learned a few new things too. Thanks!
David
Pearl�
MetricPioneer.com�
503-428-4917
An
inquiry prompted me to write about the ton issue again. The
treatise
has been printed in the current issue of Metric
Thanks for message,�Eugene Mechtly.�
Just in case
anyone is not familiar with those abbreviations:�
NCWM
=�National Conference on Weights and Measures�
NIST
=�National Institute of Standards and Technology�
My
printed copies of the 2013 editions of Handbooks 44, 130, and 133
arrived by USPS
I am very excited about the response I got from CNN�19�Mar�2013
21:23:�
Hello David,
Thank you for contacting CNN. We received the letter and
International
System Ruler that you sent to Don Lemon. We will pass them on to him
for a
possible story idea.
Thanks again for your interest
Stanislav. I appreciate the information you sent about date and time.
In my mind, the mm dd date format makes sense for sticking on the
end of file names so the files remain in alphabetical order. My United
States passport uses 26 Mar 2013 format, which I prefer to use in all
other
Stan. Yes. I am interested in receiving extra copy of SAE paper about
SI. Please find my mailing address on Contact Us section of my web
page. Thanks.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from jakub...@gmail.com -
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 17:10:08 -0400
From
I love this survey! I must admit that if I had taken this survey
several years ago, I would have goofed up on the metric questions. I
asked my wife to take the survey too and she reluctantly agreed; of
course she failed miserably, but that is OK. Michele would rather
focus on sewing quilts
I handed an International System Ruler to Maria Bamford last night.
Yes, standup comedian Maria Bamford performed live in Salem Oregon
last night at the Grand Theatre and my wife Michele and I after her
performance even got a photo of us standing with Maria Bamford which
you can see on
I think it is a great speech. Perhaps you could also mention that over
47,000 Americans signed that White House petition to Make the Metric
system the standard in the United States, instead of the Imperial
system.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from
According to http://www.onlineconversion.com 1 ton [long, UK] = 2 240 pounds
and 1 ton [short, US] = 2 000 pounds
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from vliets...@btinternet.com -
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:43:33 +0100
From: Martin Vlietstra
Mr Payne. I think the letter is very well written and I too feel
annoyed by constant conversion to non-SI units. I watch Al Jazeera
news on TV because of their use of SI units. Great letter! I have
written many letters but I have received very few responses. Let us
know what becomes of
When my wife (Michele) and I visited Canada a couple summers ago, I
tried to purchase a metric-only tape measure in a store, but they only
had tape measures cluttered with dreaded inches. We only visited a few
places in British Columbia, which may not be representative of
everywhere in
I am so shocked. I just read a Yahoo article with exclusively metric
measures! Am I dreaming?
The article mentions the word kilometers four times and the word
meters twice and no dual measure clutter!
Cameron is quoted using a four-letter word though (mile).
James Cameron Donates His
http://metricpioneer.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/american-freedom-from-monarchy-religion-slavery-and-american-civil-rights-voting-marriage-measurement/
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
I think that is a GREAT petition. Thanks! I signed it:
D. P.
Salem, OR
May 25, 2013
Signature # 2
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from a-bruie...@lycos.com -
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 23:15:40 + (UTC)
From: a-bruie...@lycos.com a-bruie...@lycos.com
Attached image shows FAGE Greek Yogurt 1000g container.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from edws...@gmail.com -
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 22:04:28 -0700
From: Edward Schlesinger edws...@gmail.com
Reply-To: edws...@gmail.com
Subject: [USMA:52845] FAGE
I just stumbled upon a cool metric flag during an internet search. I
would love to buy one, but I can't find anybody who sells them. Can
anyone help me out? See flag image here:
http://www.metricphilatelist.net/flags/flags.htm
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
John makes an excellent point; I totally agree with John F-L about
flag numerals and symbol common to all languages.
Since 10 000 km (kilometers) = 10 Mm (megameters) should the flag not
use the simpler unit?
People were making the same basic argument recently about 1000 g vs. 1
kg of
Perhaps it is because of the American frame of reference when
measuring human height (feet and inches - mixing units) and that
Americans are not exposed to typical usage that they assume human
height must be rendered in a mix of units that correspond to feet and
inches, but this is not the
Join the Metric Month Challenge at http://metricmonth.com
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
Please participate in this short survey:
1. What is your zip code?
2. What size paper do you most often use at home in your computer printer?
A4
Other
Respond to survey here: MetricPioneer.com/Contact-Us
(Survey results to be released later this year.)
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428
Use A4 paper size if you truly are a Metric Pioneer. A4 is official
United Nations paper size.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
Mark. Anyone in the United States can buy A4 paper. Metric Pioneer
even has free shipping!
http://metricpioneer.com/shop/a4-size-paper/
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from mw-hensch...@neiu.edu -
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:49:20 -0500
From: Henschel
Ezra. I share your sentiment. I watch the BBC and Al Jazeera news on
TV nearly every day. Al Jazeera typically gives reports using SI units
but every now and then some reporter gives a measurement in feet for
some odd reason. The BBC seems to be rather haphazard when it comes to
I hope Al Jazeera America continues to report exclusively in SI
measurements even for their American audience. I hope they don't dumb
it down for Americans.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
---BeginMessage---
Hello — It’s a busy week for us at Al Jazeera America. Not only are we
http://milebehind.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/a-poll-on-american-culture-and-metric-system-adoption/
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
What is the #1 reason people think the US should adopt the metric
system? View the poll results so far and vote! http://ow.ly/masoU
Assume? I rarely assume, but I did look it up. According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound The speed of sound is the
distance travelled during a unit of time by a sound wave propagating
through an elastic medium. In dry air at 20 °C the speed of sound is
343.2 metres per
Page 6 of our May - June issue of Metric Today bottom left corner has
a Malaysia postage stamp with article that focuses on an unusual gauge
labeled km/J. The article writer proposes a possible explanation. It
is really much more simple than the proposed guess. The j simply
stands for jam,
Dear Post Office. Nearly fifty thousand Americans signed a petition to
make the Metric system the standard in the United States, instead of
the Imperial system. A response from the White House says that
Americans can choose to live your life in metric if you want but the
United States Post
I receive a tweet from United States Congressman Earl Blumenauer
?@repblumenauer 9 Jul 2013 CE with a Graph from the World
Meteorological Organization on global temperature by decade. I love
that the graph is in Celsius only. pic.twitter.com/ETTWmuquGy
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com
Our local newspaper published my pro-metric letter so I though you all
might want to read it. I provide a link below in addition to the full
letter here:
Letter: U.S. must catch up on metric conversion
Hawaii introduced HB 36, a bill that could make SI (the metric system)
the official
Ben Robinson seems to be having trouble with U.S. Metric Association
membership. Can anyone help him? He lives in Hawaii. Ben Robinson has
a Twitter account: https://twitter.com/metro_ben
- Message from
n-pbagnpg=zrgevpcvbarre.pbz-92...@postmaster.twitter.com -
Date: Mon,
2013 13:54:39 -0600
From: cont...@metricpioneer.com
Subject: Re: Looking for 15 Meters Measuring Tapes
To: Damaso Palencia dam...@palcoinvestments.com
Cc: contact cont...@metricpioneer.com
Thanks for asking. My metric-only measuring tapes are shorter than
15 meters. I am so
I notice many replies to a query from Damaso Palencia but no one
included Damaso Palencia in their email replies, so please email
dam...@palcoinvestments.com directly with any helpful suggestions.
Thanks.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
I notice many replies to a query from Damaso Palencia but no one
included Damaso Palencia in their email replies, so please email
dam...@palcoinvestments.com directly with any helpful suggestions.
Thanks.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from a-bruie...@lycos.com
I was looking on Craigslist for a speedometer for my Nordic Indie
bicycle and the only listing I found was for a couple of antique ones,
Schwinn with a 20-inch drive gear and one Huret with a 27-inch drive
gear so I contacted the guy and asked if the Huret speedometer
measures in
So sorry. I forgot to attach images. Here they are.
- Message from cont...@metricpioneer.com -
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:33:23 -0600
From: cont...@metricpioneer.com
Subject: Bicycle Speedometer Question
To: U.S. Metric Association usma@colostate.edu
I was looking on
Mr Kevin Hayden. Thanks for explaining things to me over the phone
this afternoon.
Hawaii has A BILL FOR AN ACT - H.B. NO. 36 -
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=HBbillnumber=36
that deserves some consideration by those in Oregon government.
I propose that Oregon
Please take this survey and pass it on to people you know:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N97FXGP
Background: A while ago, I posted an A4 Paper Size survey that was
rather substandard.
That survey asked two questions: zip code and what paper size you use.
I had only 9 responses, 8 US
Mark. I am indeed already using Facebook and Twitter for this survey
and all my SI promotion efforts.
Please feel free to go on your Facebook and Twitter and pass this
survey on to your contacts as well.
The reason I do not go into detail about things like A4 paper size (as
you suggest) is
Mr Wyeth. How is answering ten simple questions a big, painful problem?
How would you suggest I reconfigure the survey?
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from hbwy...@earthlink.net -
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:53:19 -0700
From: Harry Wyeth
Winters/Representative Cameron,
I'm forwarding the below correspondence from one of your
constituents for your information. His contact information is
located below his signature line.
v/r Kevin
Kevin M. Hayden
Legislative Administrator
Oregon State Legislature
Phone: (503) 986-1847
e-mail
Mark. I created the survey with a free Survey Monkey option that
offers limited features.
If I had the money, I would pay the fee to get this survey out to more
people, but I am pretty broke right now.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from mw-hensch...@neiu.edu
Jim makes a good point.
I think Mark was probably thinking that NIST should redefine a cup as
an eighth of a liter.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from j...@metricmethods.com -
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 13:01:18 -0500
From: James Frysinger
Paul. I think your letter to Taylor Precision Products is a good
example of what all SI advocates should consider writing to all sorts
of manufacturers. It might sink in if manufacturers get enough letters
like yours.
When I bought my Cateye Velo 5 to measure commute distances on my
Mark. I agree with you about the rounding issue, but every driver
license I have ever seen (Canada, Europe, Mexico et cetera) shows
height in cm only, never meter point whatever. (I am 181 cm tall and
weigh 95 kg.)
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from
I asked my representative to introduce Oregon legislation basically
identical to Hawaii HB36. See response below.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from raq...@kevincameronfororegon.com -
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:13:52 -0700
From: Raquel Moore-Green
to introduce. He will
not be able to introduce this concept during that time. If this is
something you would like to prepare for the 2015 legislative
session, we can certainly put you in contact with legislative
counsel and have them draft a bill. If you would like to discuss
this further
I receive Twitter messages from Mars Curiosity. Sometimes those
messages employ non-SI units to my dismay, but I just received this
one that I thought you would appreciate:
Curiosity Rover ?@MarsCuriosity I would drive 500 meters and I would
drive 500 more. Another kilometer closer to
I noticed recently when I went on line to calculate postage that Step
5 where one enters weight, two options are now available: Standard and
Metric. When one clicks on Metric, one finds Kilograms, not grams,
even for something as light as a one-ounce letter which the Post
Office program
I notice how American editors contort news articles every time
something is measured; typically downgrading SI to parenthetical
mention, but this Yahoo article
http://news.yahoo.com/train-kills-37-pilgrims-eastern-india-103334145.html
from India three times does the reverse: . . . train
Dear Post Office.
1. The Metric System is the only legal measurement system in the
United States, made legal by the Metric Act of 1866. Imperial
measurement were never legalized in the United States.
2. Hawaii has embarked on a course that could make Hawaii metric only
by 2018 (see HB 36).
. . . The point is not to convert, but to internalize. . .
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2013/08/20/you-know-what-the-rest-of-the-world-has-figured-out-the-metric-system-its-time-the-us-got-on-board/
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
I just got a tweet from MarsCuriosity announcing longest drive yet -
110.15 meters.
http://t.co/btiavKAJ0I
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
I just got a tweet from Curiosity Rover ?@MarsCuriosity so I pass it
on thinking you might like it:
New PR: Finished a 141-meter drive yestersol. Lots more driving to
come. How do you pass the time on long road trips?
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
Have a look at page 7 (or search the word inch) and find multiple
places where non-metric equivalents are given.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from j...@metricmethods.com -
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 20:45:15 -0500
From: James j...@metricmethods.com
Mr Eugene Mechtly. Which article do you refer to?
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from mech...@illinois.edu -
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:00:40 +
From: mechtly, eugene a mech...@illinois.edu
Reply-To: mech...@illinois.edu
Subject: [USMA:53243] WM
I met with Representative Kevin Cameron this morning who wrote a note
authorizing Oregon Legislative Counsel to introduce legislation to the
Oregon House in the 2015 Session. I spoke with Legislative Counsel
Dexter A. Johnson and handed him a copy of Hawaii HB 36. Dexter will
write up this
Mr Trusten. I understand your point, however, when Plan A fails, one
can either give up and take comfort in the fact that since Plan A is
the best approach, no other plan is worthy, or one could resort to
Plan B or Plan C all the way to Plan Z if that is what it takes. What
if no slave
Natalie. I wish I knew the answer to your question. I hope some
humanoids reading this email answer your question and fill us both in
because I would love to know as well.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from np...@yahoo.com -
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013
Please see pro-metric article on Page 7 of The Valley Explorer:
http://issuu.com/sm97321/docs/explorer_v4_i3_web
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
The traditional Burmese units of measurement are still in everyday use
in Burma. In June 2011, the Burmese government's Ministry of Commerce
began discussing proposals to reform the measurement system in Burma
and adopt the metric system used by most of its trading partners. Most
Burmese
Helen. You are welcome. Please consider signing this Metrication Pledge:
http://metricpioneer.com/metrication-pledg/
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from sunovermount...@yahoo.com -
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Helen Bushnell
Jennifer. Thank you for responding. I hope you took the opportunity to
look the bill over and contemplate its significance. The Oregon bill
based upon Hawaii HB 36 is now designated LC44 according to what a
staff person from Legislative Counsel told me the other day. Dexter A.
Johnson
State Representative Dennis Richardson. Thank you for responding and
thank you for taking the time to look the bill over and contemplate
its significance. I think it is wonderful that you add this idea to
the list of possibilities you are compiling for the 2014 Session. Many
Americans
In 1969 the Caribbean Community (CARICOM, whose members are
Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Grenada,
Guyana, Haiti, Jamaica, Montserrat, St. Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, St.
Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, and Trinidad and Tobago) took the
decision to move as a
I agree. America simply needs to complete her metrication, not start
from scratch, which is the point I try to make in this Fact Sheet:
http://metricpioneer.com/fact-sheet
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from c...@traditio.com -
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013
Mr Wyeth. OnlineConversion dot com says that 330 mL is a wee bit less
than 12 ounces. The United States imports many such products, but our
government forces them to list both ounces and mL in this case. I look
forward to the day when SI-only is allowed. Happy Metric Week everybody!
David
See this article too:
http://www.elevenmyanmar.com/national/3684-myanmar-to-adopt-metric-system
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from c...@traditio.com -
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: c...@traditio.com
Reply-To: Martin Morrison
to understand and use and keep her informed. I feel now
is the time for members of USMA to contact their State House and Senate
Representatives.
Also I think the message to convey is the completion and how much the US
already uses the SI metric system. We need to get away from pointing to the
outworn only
and keep her informed. I feel now
is the time for members of USMA to contact their State House and Senate
Representatives.
Also I think the message to convey is the completion and how much the US
already uses the SI metric system. We need to get away from pointing to the
outworn only three
State Representative Dennis Richardson. I hope my idea is still on
your list. Please keep us updated on which bills are working their way
to the top of your list. Many members of The United States Metric
Association would be interested to know as well. Sincerely,
David Pearl
I notice a Yahoo News article from Reuters with only one parenthetical
non-SI reference in third paragraph; otherwise, the article uses only
SI units.
http://news.yahoo.com/philippines-braces-super-typhoon-strongest-033006175--finance.html
For example:
With center winds of 215 kph (133 mph)
No. He was NOT right. He said in kilometers per hour that is around .
. . miles per hour. He gave the wrong unit. He said miles when he
should have said kilometers. That is my point. I thought my original
message made that clear.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message
My wife Michele and I recently watched a Nova episode: Asteroid:
Doomsday or Payday? and I noticed that instead of the usual Nova
rendering of most measures in non-SI units, many measures were only
SI, like meters and kilometers with no equivalents given in yards,
feet or miles. Of course
Many Americans still refer to the SI as the metric system even though
the SI has been around for well over half a century. I am almost
finished reading a fascinating book by Robert P. Crease - World in the
Balance: The Historic Quest for a Universal System of Measurement -
ISBN
My co-worker recently recounted to me her discussion with a car
salesman who claimed that 0 to 60 mph is the ONLY performance measure
for automotive acceleration used worldwide. He told her this during a
discussion in which she was telling him about her co-worker (that's
me) who advocates
So Wikipedia is wrong? It would not be the first time.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from j...@frewston.plus.com -
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 20:36:04 -
From: j...@frewston.plus.com
Reply-To: j...@frewston.plus.com
Subject: [USMA:53431] RE: 0 to 100
Two reasons to be excited. First, that China landed lunar rover on
moon, and second, that the CNN article lists three normal measures
without dumbing down with parenthetical equivalents. See article here:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/14/world/asia/china-moon-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 and
If photos did not come through, then see photos on my Facebook because
I posted the photos there.
Facebook.com/MetricPioneer
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from metricmik...@gmail.com -
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 02:47:39 -0500
From: Michael Payne
Thanks Mr Howard Ressel. I will pop it in letter box on way to work
tomorrow morning. Anyone else want one?
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from howard.res...@dot.ny.gov -
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:11:48 -0500
From: Ressel, Howard (DOT)
-daw...@att.net
--
This mail is sent via contact form on Metric Pioneer http://metricpioneer.com
- End message from l-daw...@att.net -
-mail at your convenience
or answer part of it and finish later. Most grateful, Linda
l-daw...@att.net
--
This mail is sent via contact form on Metric Pioneer
http://metricpioneer.com/
- End message from l-daw...@att.net -
- End message from l-daw...@att.net -
! I know this is the holiday season, so you can answer this very
long e-mail at your convenience or answer part of it and finish later.
Most grateful, Linda l-daw...@att.net
--
This mail is sent via contact form on Metric Pioneer
http://metricpioneer.com/
- End message from l-daw...@att.net
this Linda knew better.
[USMA:53453] Re: Questions -- if you would be so kind to answer
contact Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:10:10 -0800
USMA. I received three questions from Linda Dawson who wrote a book:
Dradnats and the Metric Measurement Kids (Paperback ISBN
978-1492146261). I attempt to answer
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/25LRWBD
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
Tell that to BIPM. Those are all official SI measurements and
internationally recognized. Ignoring them is to bury your head in the
sand.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from hbwy...@earthlink.net -
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 20:46:15 -0800
From: Harry
Small minds are self-limiting. What is the width of a hydrogen atom?
How far is Jupiter from the sun? Intelligent people need appropriate
units to measure very small and very large things.
David Pearl MetricPioneer.com 503-428-4917
- Message from vliets...@btinternet.com -
Well. I am 1810 millimeters tall, but that would also be a ridiculous
way to render my height because human height is rendered in
centimeters on every non-US drivers license I have ever seen. BIPM
created prefixes for good reasons, so the argument is not with me, but
with those people
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