http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2008/pulpit_20081003_005424.html
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Just want to make sure the list still works after changing something...
Reed
--
http://interreality.org/~reed
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Oops, just noticed that the days of the week are out of order. Should
fix that I guess. But there's an interesting upward trend toward the
middle of the week, then it goes down to drop off on Saturday.
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Interesting coincidence! Congratulations to you too!
Reed
Braden McDaniel wrote:
On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 11:51 -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
I have a new top priority project that must compete with VOS -- Zephan
Isaac was born on Friday at 7:30 PM! Though so far he's been great and
we're well
Am thinking of switching over to the new website I was working on earlier
(http://interreality.org:4088), but without the half-assed
background image. Would be nice to create a nicer one but don't have time.
I'll also do an editing and clarity pass to try to improve whatever wording I
can, and
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 01:47:35PM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
Am thinking of switching over to the new website I was working on earlier
(http://interreality.org:4088), but without the half-assed
Go to http://interreality.org:4088/home to see
We talked a bit on IRC but wanted to respond here too.
I think it can be summarized briefly like this, I think:
In S4, Vobjects had an ordered list of named child links to other
Vobjects, one type of which was a Property. In the proposal, Vobjects
have an unordered set of named properties,
http://www.vrmag.org/speedracer/
When they say VR, at least in the John Gaeta interview, I think they
are really referring to panoramic images projected on the inside of a
sphere, and you view it from the center and rotate to view different
parts of the image.
The interview starts down a
I'm worried about introducing yet more complexity into S5. You know that this is
a big concern of mine.
What is the exact overhead for having entries in the child list for embedded
properties? You need a contextual name, and you need the object. The list
itself stores the position value. The
In other words, I sort of imagined it like this:
class Entity
{
handleMessage();
setEntity* parents;
string url;
}
class Link
{
string cname;
int pos;
Entity *child;
Entity *parent;
}
class Vobject : Entity
{
listLink children;
vectorEmbeddedProperty embeddedProperties;
I've started putting together a new website in (s4) hypervos at
http://interreality.org:4088/home.
It's simplified from the current site, and has less info. As we update things
like documentation for S5 and make releases, we can expand the site. I make a
wiki page (DraftDocs) that links to
I was under the impression that, for the most part, you are always going
to be working through Wrapper objects. Is this true?
I still think it would be easier for people to use VOS if the wrapper
classes had plain names, and the thing being wrapped had the funny
name. E.g.
DataType
Lalo Martins wrote:
Also spracht Reed Hedges (Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:23:53 -0500):
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +, Lalo Martins wrote:
hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos;
Is the src/app/mod_vos directory in bzr current?
Reed
Reed Hedges wrote:
Lalo Martins wrote:
Also spracht Reed Hedges (Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:23:53 -0500):
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +, Lalo Martins wrote:
hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos;
Is the src/app/mod_vos directory in bzr current?
I'd like
What is the Extension Manager? (WHat's an ExtensionManagerWrapper?)
What is a Service Manager (site.getServiceManager)?
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Original Message
Subject:[liblf-dev] C++0x developments
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:47:36 -0500
From: Bjorn Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hey all,
I just wanted to update everyone on the latest developments in
Reed Hedges wrote:
Here are two ideas I had for a new website design. Both are rough sketches.
\
2. http://interreality.org/~reed/tmp/iro/index2.html
I made a few small changes to this one, trying a different background
image (the branches one is just to show the concept, it's a terrible
reed wrote:
I updated the Road Map page on the Wiki to reflect S5 plans. Pete, please
correct it if it's a bit off. This is just a general guideline, we don't
really know yet when the first S5 release will be, or whether it will be a
1.0 release or a beta or testing prerelease that is
Lalo Martins wrote:
I like #1. When I did a mockup a long long time ago, I went with a
similar idea, and I think it's still valid; the metaphor being that
you're looking at a few flat widgets floating in a 3d space.
The main thing I don't like is it's too dark and black, which might
scare
I made the divs a bit transparent in #1. I think they're too boring though,
maybe need a bit more bubbliness? (Or is that too Web 2.0? :) Or more of a
border?
I just threw together the background images in blender, but I do like having
them look more polygonated and emphasising that they are 3d
Here's Ton talking about some changes to the Blender UI code:
http://www.blendernation.com/2008/02/18/the-future-of-blender/
Our UI client ideas are somewhat similar to the kind of things Blender does. If
they make the code reusable and general enough, it's possible that we could even
use it to
The internal code changes are to use a more general event system for UI and
tool
actions, and make all the UI infrastructure accessible and customizable from
Python.
Here's more
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/BlenderDev/SundayMeetingAgenda/December_23rd_2007
Croquet is very cool. I know Pete and I have been following it and reading about
it since we started VOS. I don't know if its details have influenced our design
much, but some the end goals and features are similar.
A lot about it is not documented, as far as I can tell. It's all is Squeak,
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 07:13:14PM +, Lalo Martins wrote:
hypervos is already alive and kicking in the form of an Apache mod_vos;
Ack! Why didn't you email the list! I've been adding stuff to S4 hypervos (and
intend to port them to
S5!) And I have many plans for further development (see
Lalo Martins wrote:
AIUI from IRC conversations, the site IDs won't actually be visible to
the application programmer later on; we'll deal only with IDs like /vos/
core/StringProperty. (I'm not sure about the code namespaces, but I
hope some simplification is intended there too ;-) ) Peter
Can this be fixed, or is there a way to disable sitetest, or have scons
skip it or something?
g++ -o debug/build/src/test/sitetest.o -c -g -Wall
-Idebug/thirdparty/stage/include -Idebug/stage/include src/test/sitetest.cc
src/test/sitetest.cc: In function 'void sitetest_verify_signature()':
The new type IDs are still bothering me a bit too (among other things,
like the code namespaces). A huge advantage of the old user-invented
type names is that they were natural to understand and easy to remember.
We're going to have to do a lot of cutting and pasting, and when we
get one
Started listing S5 changes at:
http://interreality.org/wiki/S5
http://interreality.org/wiki/ChangesToA3dl
Will fill them in a bit as I go through the vos-d archives and talk to
Pete more.
Reed
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I'm going through S5 a bit more deeply now.
Pete, can you give a summary explanation of these new classes/concepts,
and how you use them, what they do, etc.
What are:
ComponentWrapper
Promise
Status (used with a Promise it seems?)
IVobject
VobjectImpl
ImplementationWrapper
And just a general impression... S5 is becoming really complex and
daunting (and sophisticated, and hopefully very powerful) piece of
software. But this means that we're going to need to put a *lot* of
work in documenting, tutorials, as well as just polishing and refining
the API itself, to
On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 06:01:30PM +, Lalo Martins wrote:
Also spracht Reed Hedges (Fri, 07 Dec 2007 10:57:10 -0500):
Oh, ok, then my sketch is not really SOD, just a similar thing. Sorry
for apropriating the name. I didn't know that you implemented your
format (or forgot). Why wasn't
I don't know about Karsten, but the reason I have a knee-jerk reaction
against suffixes like Wrapper is that it just feels like cruft, based
on other systems where the word had no consistent meaning, at least from
a user's perspective, it just seemed a hack to extend an API or
facilitate its
Karsten Otto wrote:
Ok, I see. But this implies there could be more servers than just
one, each hosting a replica. Which one do I contact for updates? With
VOP/VIP URLs this was straightforward, but please remind me again,
how do I contact a vos:0011223344... key-based site? Is there a
We should also include at this point a reminder of why there's a code
generator.
If I understand things correctly, the goal is to use the code generator to
(a) generate code for different programming languages
(b) make it easier for users to generate MetaObject (now called Component)
Component is generic, and also recalls COM etc.
How about:
Part
Facet
Role
Type
Fragment
Trait
What exactly *is* a metaobject? It's a constituent Vobject that's part of a
real Vobject, and which implements a facet or part of that Vobject, probably
corresponding to a type. It implements part
Can you comment on this Peter?
Let's say I want a set of listeners attached to an object to be invoked in
order. Let's say that both listeners live on the same local site (process) and
maybe are both associated with the same vobject. Will there be a way to do this
in S5? What if the listeners
Here are some ideas I had on revamping the web site.
Graphic Design
--
* Change the background to white or another light color. Maybe change
the main content area to a different shade too, rather than current grey.
* A set of background/side illustrations, that convey some of the
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 05:16:27PM -0400, Peter Amstutz wrote:
Notes from some initial discussion of the interreality 3d interface.
Participants: winterk, zaharazod, tetron
- Should be more like stuff people expect
- Splitting and merging panels is likely to confuse casual
users
-
Here's an RSS feed for the vos-announce form/mailing list:
http://interreality.org/announce.rss
(actually, it's an alias for the RSS feed that the forum software generates, but
this abstracts that in case we change forum software or whatever. vos-d also has
an rss feed, just go to its forum
I think it would be ok to just black it out (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]). It's
not that useful to have email
addresses visible, this is just an artifact of how some email clients do
replies.
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 11:07:22AM -0400, Peter Amstutz wrote:
Posted at:
Just thought of this: One thing that a remote app. might want to customize about
the UI is how some things are labeled, or it might want to add special
informational labels/text blocks/tooltips/bubbles/whatever.
Reed
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Nope. You can see here: http://interreality.org/phorum/read.php?2,88
Reed
On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 02:43:08PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Peter,
I hope the mail addresses are not open readable in forum then, or we might
get a lot of spam here soon?
--
On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 02:53:49AM +, Lalo Martins wrote:
Also spracht Reed Hedges (Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:24:27 -0400):
- type list
- child list
- payload, if any (eg properties)
- security capabilities
- parent list?
That would be problematic. Since the PCRs are already
This sounds really good. Having replication and clustering will be
really important as we move forward. It will let us do all kinds of
scaling and load distribution, and even manage things like internal,
in-development or draft datasets that get published to a public site
when ready... lots
Brief oververview of Englebarts vision and ideas, talking to folks at Google.
http://youtube.com/w/?v=xQx-tuW9A4Q
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Pete has a Mac so maybe he can help.
I guess you have neither readline nor termios, so it's trying to use
getch() from curses. Can you post the 'config.log' file that should have
been created in the main build directory?
Can you grep for the getch() function somewhere, it should be in
5) Come up with some milestones and prioritize development. The
strategy will probably be to code enough of the VOS framework to support
concurrent development of higher level pieces like A3DL, and to start
putting some meat on the bones of the UI prototype. This may be
something like
this script recently? Have any problems that need to be
fixed or missing features added?
In a little while I'll consolidate possible tasks for 0.24 and we can
prioritize them (we probably won't be able to do all of them, we ought
to release 0.24 pretty soon).
Reed
Reed Hedges wrote
I've been writing some code that makes some objects fly around and Ken's
interpolation code makes it look nice and smooth. However, in doing so
I experimented a bit with position update frequency, wondering what the
slowest rate I could use is, especially when the velocity I was trying
to
It doesn't have to be in depth about how it works, just shows what it does and
doesn't do (i.e. it just wraps the core vobject and property api, right, not all
the metaobjects [yet]?) and how to go about trying to use it, maybe give some
examples. How do you build it? (run setup.py?)
Reed
Lalo Martins wrote:
Yes. There is already a prototype s5-scripting branch somewhere to match
Peter's prototype s5 branch, and it looks absolutely beautiful, although
Is it sftp://interreality.org/home/bzroot/s5-scripting/libs/vos/python?
Do you have any documentation or notes you can add
scripting? (which would
be basically a dead end.)
Reed
Lalo Martins wrote:
Also spracht Reed Hedges (Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:58:40 -0400):
What is the state of the S4 scripting branch
(http://interreality.org/home/bzroot/s4-scripting)? Does the Python
interface work?
disclaimer: I haven't
Are there any bugs or real defects in Ter'Angreal or VOS? I know of two, don't
know if we should fix them:
* Avatar settings (model/skin) aren't saved (really just an unimplemented
feature)
* Objects aren't always removed from the world
Something to test is whether all A3DL
On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 12:29:43PM +0200, Karsten Otto wrote:
This sounds like a radical redesign... so far we had a single local
vobject acting as a sequencer for multiple remote vobjects.
Obviously, you have something new in mind. Please tell us more :-)
My feeling is that this would be
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 08:05:37AM -0600, S Mattison wrote:
I can fall through the map. =P
Well maybe you need a floor! :)
Well, it's not difficult when there are no invisible bounding boxes
holding me on.
Actually it's several things
1. Bounds in the world that terangreal can check,
What is the state of the S4 scripting branch
(http://interreality.org/home/bzroot/s4-scripting)? Does the Python interface
work?
Thinking about what we should try to include in 0.24 (codename s4 swan song).
Reed
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Chris is referring here to a proposal for the X3D format/language (new
version of VRML) to add the sensor nodes mentioned, by the way.
Reed
chris wrote:
Hi, just a few comments on other status that may interest.
I have been testing tcp/ip networking with an implementation of the network
On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 10:02:03PM -0400, Peter Amstutz wrote:
On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 07:31:42PM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
How do listener notifications fit in with the S5
vobject-as-logical-thread idea? I'm thinking specifically about impact
on ability to scale number of objects
How do listener notifications fit in with the S5
vobject-as-logical-thread idea? I'm thinking specifically about impact
on ability to scale number of objects that one listener is listening to.
I'm guessing listener notifications are processed same as any other
messages in the vobject's
Was the crystalspace snapshot updated or changed recently? I'm getting
these errors now trying to build it. Is anyone else or is something
strange going on with my checkout?
C++ ./out/linuxx86/debug/libs/csutil/csstring.o
./include/csutil/formatter.h:992: error: non-template
not and will
probably never use).
Reed
Reed Hedges wrote:
Was the crystalspace snapshot updated or changed recently? I'm getting
these errors now trying to build it. Is anyone else or is something
strange going on with my checkout?
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The planned S5 features of embedded properties and string pooling ought
to make it efficient to search for objects on a site by type or name
(due to string pooling), if the shared strings have pointers back to
their vobjects, right? Have you implemented string pooling
yet, or what are your plans
On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 10:18:34AM -0400, Peter Amstutz wrote:
The bigger problem was I was doing something dumb in 0.23, which was the
code that loads the md2 models for avatars recenters it to make the
origin the center of the avatar bounding box rather than at the avatar's
feet.
So
We don't have specific plans for H-anim and VOS. We haven't designed
how jointed, animateable geometry will work in VOS yet. Chris is just
keeping us informed about possible things to do (thanks Chris) I think.
At this point, we plan on having a general VRML server for VOS that
exposes a
Yeah, so his ideas cut accross all kinds of layers and aspects of
networking. so I don't think VOS can be THE solution to the problems
he explains, but it can provide a few key tools. Namely it can be a data
storage system, both for originals, and replicated copies, and for
store-and-forward,
I downloaded a copy of this video if anyone wants it.
Reed
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This means that if that version object is mutable, i.e. a not read-only
property, we need to also have branches in the version history, and any
reference to a past version of a vobjcet is really a reference to the
most recent version in the branch rooted on this object, which if there
is
I guess each copy, whether changed or not, should have a pointer to its
original. I wonder if any vobject version should not have it's
versions inside it, but simply have a pointer to it's predecessor (or
the other way around, an object has links to all its derivatives). Then
you can have
Karsten Otto wrote:
You cannot really fix this with a don't-interpolate flag,
as there is no good place to put one. You could extend the property-
update notification, but a lot of properties do not use interpolation
That's ok. Nothing stops you from adding whatever fields you want to the
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 11:07:11PM -0400, Peter Amstutz wrote:
It's actually make distcheck that's interesting in this case. In
automake it gives you a single command that will build a source tarball,
unpack it to another directory, runs configure and does a build. It's a
very useful
Lars O. Grobe wrote:
Do you have libtool installed? That is a separate package from autoconf
and automake.
I compiled the most recent one from GNU. As I am not root, I installed
it in my home and added it to my PATH. Does the build make any
assumption where to find libtool (e.g. under
Wow, thanks Ken!
The only thing I haven't really tracked down is that avatar movement seems a
bit jerky in the MSVC build. If I get more time I might look into it...
Try it in a release build. (both VOS and Crystalspace in release mode).
MSVC puts a lot of extra code in when in debug
Hi Lars, thanks for giving it a try. We have not tried the current
version of vos on Solaris yet but would like to make it work there (the
libraries and server at least).
Are you using 0.23, or the development version (source control
repository snapshot or checkout)?
What version of autoconf is
Pete, in your description of S5 so far it seems like it is defining a
threading model that is not neccesarily coupled to a particular thread
implementation. That is, conceptually vobjects are threads or proceses
but I am guessing that you won't be implementing it by simply creating a
pthread for
In a different forum, Hellekin Wolf asked:
The server issue mentioned above makes me think of the requirements for
running a VOS world. Do I need hardware graphics or is it only for the
client side?
A server does not need any graphics hardware. Many servers in fact are
just providing data
On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 07:27:21AM +, Lalo Martins wrote:
One problem I have with the pure-js version is the nature of HTTP; either
the browser would need to keep a persistent connection to the server, like
some web chat rooms do -- which is error prone (hard to recover from a
This would be great for people who primarily want to just chat or be
present in the world while doing other work, so they don't want the full
3D world.
It would also make it possible for blind people to interact in the 3D
world.
Reed
On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 01:54:23PM -0400, Peter Amstutz
scenery part). Unfortunately, viewpoints usually have no navigation
links between them. So for what you want to do, you need a
combination of both.
This requires some work, but VOS is flexible enough to support all this.
Yeah, you would just have the waypoint object type have child
Is anyone here familiar with Javascript much?
I'm wondering what kind of networking tools are available from
Javascript. I've been reading about a thing some people call Comet,
(http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=545) which basically a publish/push
model for the server to update pages live. It
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 10:29:35PM -0400, Peter Amstutz wrote:
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 09:26:09PM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
* Change mouse cursor to reflect what clicking will do (i.e.
differentiate between mouselook/move modes; change when over a hypercard
or clickable)
Yea
Peter Amstutz wrote:
On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 05:16:16PM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
There's also something called Flow-Based Programming that is similar. In
some ways it's closer to VOS since Actors are, I think, more like method
handlers (in VOS terminology).
I don't agree. Flow-based
So messages between local objects will be serialized and passed like
remote messages, rather than being method calls? Is that overhead a
concern?
If so, maybe an optimization would be to have a message format that just
packs native machine format arguments into the message in the same order
Peter Amstutz wrote:
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 08:16:59AM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
So messages between local objects will be serialized and passed like
remote messages, rather than being method calls? Is that overhead a
concern?
It is a concern, although I'm don't think I would call
Ken Taylor wrote:
the fact that you guys seem to be allergic to comments doesn't
help either ;) (i jest! i jest ... sorta)
Just Pete.
But he wrote most of the code.
Reed
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Peter Amstutz wrote:
Whenever I try to set up a VOS build environment on Windows, I get a
sharp, throbbing headache and a strong urge to throw my chair out the
window. It's difficult to understate just how big of a maintainance
hassle the current build system is on Windows (whether Cygwin,
Karsten Otto wrote:
Interestingly, while it has buttons that trigger actions, I mainly
used them as a quick way to arrange keyboard shortcuts during normal
gameplay. The only time I ever used the interface in a traditional
way was for complex actions like trading items. Actually this is
different protocols. Not sure yet how to bridge to completely different
multiuser 3D systems but at some point we might see if it's possible.
Reed
Reed Hedges wrote:
Subject:
[www-vrml] Flux Worlds Server Announcement
Ken Taylor wrote:
Peter Amstutz wrote:
1. Memory footprint
The current s4 design has a lot of per-vobject overhead, leading to a
significant memory footprint. The development version improves on this
a bit, but the honest truth is that the implementation was not written
with memory
---BeginMessage---
Folks,
We've been up to something over here - thought I would tell you about it
before you heard it on the street.
Media Machines has been developing a multi-user server based on a new
protocol that we intend to put out into the open. We have dubbed it Simple
Wide Area
We don't know what our niche is yet. We have one main domain (3D)
and a secondary domain (Web) but there might even be others.
Actually when we first began this several years ago, we knew someone
who knew someone intersted in building factory tracking systems, though
we ended up not really
Ken Taylor wrote:
Cool! I was actually thinking the other day that being able to select and
inspect objects in Ter'Angreal would be useful and not super-difficult to
implement on the current architecture. I like the ui:actions object as a
sort of scripting approximation, though i'm assuming it
Another thought: does your derived class *have* to inherit Base virtually?
Yes, basically. Well, in one case it doesn't and calling the method in
the base class to register the handler works. In another case it has to
be virtual.
Maybe I can find a way to reorganize things to avoid it.
Peter Amstutz wrote:
On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 06:15:39PM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:
The reason I ask is that I want to load some 3D objects from a COD file,
but then insert some non-3d children into one of those objects, and
extend its types. This is the kind of thing that VOS is all about
Peter Amstutz wrote:
Well, the idea was more to support the ability to import other file
formats (X3D comes to mind, although it's maybe not a good example since
it's really an example of how not to design an XML schema) using a
straightforward XSLT transform. Of course, we haven't yet
Len Bullard wrote:
I will move on to X3D because eventually I will need some
of the new features like Inlines with interfaces and bits like the Keyboard
Sensor, the upcoming Network Sensor and the physics engine, or the
Nice-to-Haves like the Boolean Sequencer that I can replicate in script
chris wrote:
Lauren,
you were clear enough - I was just reinterpreting a bit because I don't
think I have seen
such a thing for x3d. But there are some potential candidates as a starting
point, such as vos, vrspace or deepmatrix, to
perhaps link with an X3D browser. I just don't know
For one thing, apparently you can't do this:
class Base {
public:
virtual void pure() = 0;
templateclass T register() {
VobjectBase::registerHandlerT(message, handler);
}
void handler(Message *m) {
...
}
};
class VirtualDerived : public virtual Base {
public:
Peter Amstutz wrote:
No, and it shouldn't do that -- the goal is to have the XML DOM
structure reflect the VOS structure in a meaningful way. If you spread
essential information for a single vobject all over the document such
that it requires that you must process the entire document
Reed Hedges wrote:
OK, cool. We have needed that kind of thing for a long time. We had a
simple way of doing this called OTD (object type definition) a while
ago, but then all the code change and all the OTDs went out of date :)
http://interreality.org/wiki/ObjectTypeDefinitions
http
Lalo Martins wrote:
But that's more or less what we're talking about, at least for some of
those cases if not all. A properly 3d IM app using libgaim wouldn't be
too hard, for example.
This is basically what the IRC bridge does, except it doesn't create any
graphical object to represent
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