TLDR: 10 mile on fiber at 10Gigs is a piece of cake. Where it gets fun is when your doing DWDM with OADMs along the way. Then you start to sweat every splice.
On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 2:18 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > Connector loss is generally less than .3 dB according to the jumper > vendors. > > Not sure why you say 6 dB for patch panel loss. > > You will have 1.2 dB patch panel loss in my opinion. That would be 4 SC > or LC or whatever connectors at .3dB each. > > *From:* Adam Moffett > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 6, 2019 5:47 AM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber > > Here's a relatively inexpensive "40km" 10G SFP+ > https://www.fs.com/products/48813.html > > That says +5db Tx power, receiver sensitivity of -16dbm > > 10 miles is about 16km, and you'll lose around 0.2db/km. > Some sources say to assume 0.5db per fusion splice and 1.5db per > connector. That's super conservative. In real life your splices are going > to be 0.1db - 0.2db. > > So at 16km I've lost 3.2db from distance. With a patch panel at each end > I've lost 6db to connectors. That puts me at -4.2dbm RSSI, and I can go as > low as -16 and still function so I can have 20+ splices at 0.5db loss each > and still function at 10gig. My fusion splicer is configured to fail > splices worse than 0.2, so if I use 0.2db then I can have around 60 splices > and still be ok. In some future hellscape where the fiber got blasted to > pieces and I had to put in 100 splices to repair it, I could swap out the > optics with stronger ones since they're just SFP+ cards at the endpoints. > > I'm not sure what the free sandwich guy was talking about, but fusion > splices aren't a big deal. > > I have a quote in hand for $25/splice, so yeah volume moves the price > down. You can also train a monkey to operate the splicer. It's delicate > finesse work, but it's not difficult. Just make sure the monkey doesn't > have a drug problem so they don't run off with your $5,000 splicer. If > you're going to do hundreds of splices, get a trailer and train your > monkeys rather than paying a contractor. > > -Adam > > > > On 3/5/2019 10:54 PM, Steve Jones wrote: > > So how do you avoid aggregate loss on longer hauls if theres a fusion > splice every 2 to 4 miles? 10gb, as i understand it has very low tolerances > even to fusion splice loss (per the corning free sandwich thing i went to) > > And splice cost on 10 miles if you do 4 in the middle and 2+2 on the ends > is five splices per strand including the termination. On 96 count thats > close to 500 splices, we pay 50 to 70 a splice on tower fiber, thats like > at least 30 bucks. > > When you get into this type of work are splices less money on average? > Thats like 25k in splices otherwise, with like 60 to 80k in fiber. > > Im just not understanding where a guy stays 35 or under a mile when youre > burning that kind of dough before you even get to manpower, equipment, > traffic control, handholes, and permits. > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 2:44 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > >> The big problem is friction. Hard to blow more than about 10,000’ in one >> stretch. The blower gets slower and slower an finally comes to a halt. If >> you set up in the middle of the stretch, you can blow one direction and >> then use a fig 8 machine to pull the remainder off the reel and start >> blowing in the other direction. >> >> *From:* Adam Moffett >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 5, 2019 1:36 PM >> *To:* af@af.afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >> >> 10,000ft reels are a manageable size. Those are 5' diameter and a couple >> hundred pounds. >> If I do 20,000ft then contractors grumble about moving them. >> >> Someone on Quora said they were running long haul off 20km reels. They >> must have spooled it off a tractor trailer or a railroad car. >> >> >> On 3/5/2019 3:26 PM, Steve Jones wrote: >> >> i cant count that high >> >> but i would like to see that volume terminated. >> >> Off the termination subject though, what are the logistics on 10 miles of >> ducted fiber? Is it blown the whole ten miles in a single shot or spliced >> at the intermediate handholes? Im trying to understand how handholes come >> in to play in the path and what a reel with 10 miles+ fiber on it looks like >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 2:19 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: >> >>> hehe 96, what about a 864 or 3456 count :) >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:44 AM Chris Fabien <ch...@lakenetmi.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Usually a rack mount patch & splice panel. Big box with 96 connectors >>>> on the front and room for splice trays in the back. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:55 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Out of curiosity, What does a 96 count terminate to at each end? Would >>>>> you go into just a big wall of pigtails or what. Not being a smart ass >>>>> here, I really dont know how you would manage that volume of fibers coming >>>>> in the wall >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 11:33 AM Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Both? Still working on it. At the costs some of these guys want, I'll >>>>>> likely just be hiring dirt work. >>>>>> >>>>>> I got a quote of $3/ft just to draw lines on a map when I knew >>>>>> someone building the whole thing for $7. Uh, no thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From: *"Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>> *Sent: *Friday, February 15, 2019 10:49:53 AM >>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, >>>>>> What did you have quoted? just dirt work or project end to end? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:33 PM Tim Cailloux < >>>>>> t...@southern-internet.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> You're not obligated by GAAP to treat book value of an asset as >>>>>>> commercial value (i.e. "mark to market"), so it's appropriate to treat >>>>>>> fiber as a long-lived depreciating asset. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There may be some interesting accounting if you sign an IRU, and it >>>>>>> turns out that accountants wrote a white paper on that: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAssets/ey-spotlight-on-telecommunications-accounting/$FILE/ey-spotlight-on-telecommunications-accounting-issue2.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would be surprised if states have unfavorable tax treatment of >>>>>>> fiber builds, and may even encourage it and give tax discounts. In >>>>>>> Georgia, for example, tax credits are given to telecommunication builds. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> tim >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:44 PM Tim Withrow via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How is the yearly taxes on the physical fiber asset, in the states >>>>>>>> that tax it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it a depreciating asset, or one that gains value generally? >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 Mike Hammett <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> I found a crew that'll do a ballpark drill cost of $7. I haven't >>>>>>>> gotten any details yet about restoration, potholing, etc. I have some >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> crews to follow up on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was really targeting that for my total price due to what I heard >>>>>>>> others in Indiana are paying, but it seems like I won't get there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *From: *ch...@wbmfg.com >>>>>>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 13, 2019 11:05:56 AM >>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Directional drilling will cost from $15-$25/ft. >>>>>>>> Plowing about $4 - $6/ft >>>>>>>> Excavation $8 –$15/ft >>>>>>>> Blowing $.50 - $1/ft >>>>>>>> Splicing $10-$20 per burn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Mike Hammett >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 13, 2019 9:59 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've been asking around for companies to do a bunch of build up >>>>>>>> here. I haven't liked most of the quotes I've seen. I'll let you know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> I end up doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That said, I was probably going to do everything other than the >>>>>>>> dirt work myself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *From: *"Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 13, 2019 10:47:01 AM >>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In illinois, who would be a project contractor to approach for a >>>>>>>> legitimate quote on a fiber project like this? Start to finish, >>>>>>>> permitting, >>>>>>>> product spec, duct, fiber, terminations, handhole/vaults, trench/bore, >>>>>>>> etc >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 4:47 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cost >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> oh. I cant see that if we ever did this type of fiber we would >>>>>>>> direct bury. aside from cost is there any reason one wouldnt duct? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like 100’ in each handhole. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:10 AM, Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:00 AM, Steve Jones < >>>>>>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 300k was a quote at one point. Weve got a little under half that >>>>>>>> in microwave solutions spread over the years and we are coming up on >>>>>>>> consistent 1/3 capacity with spikes over half, so we will outgrow that >>>>>>>> investment again in a relatively short period. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 30k / mile is pretty typical. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "You can cut and splice duct when going over and under obstacles. >>>>>>>> If doing direct burial you would be doing giant figure 8s or cutting >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> splicing every time you hit a culvert or other shallow facility." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I assume these figure8 are slack and in handhole/vaults? so in >>>>>>>> rural areas, at least 1 per mile since theres a road every mile? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nope. The figure-8 is how you have to handle the cable when >>>>>>>> installing it if you don’t have duct. When direct burying the cable >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> have to take the spool with you as you go since you can’t pull cable >>>>>>>> once >>>>>>>> it’s buried. Every time you need to pass under an obstacle you >>>>>>>> either >>>>>>>> have to cut the fiber and splice it back together or pull the entire >>>>>>>> remainder of the cable off the real, store it temporarily, shove the >>>>>>>> end >>>>>>>> under the obstacle and then reel up all the cable again. It’s a >>>>>>>> seriously >>>>>>>> labor intensive process and you risk damaging the cable every time you >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Whats the rule of thumb on slack? is there a percentage? like say >>>>>>>> for every 1000 feet you have x feet of slack? I aasume when an auger >>>>>>>> hits >>>>>>>> the duct it will pull alot of that slack? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 10% >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 12:04 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Duct can be had for 35 cents / foot or less. I was getting it for >>>>>>>> 28 cents until the extrusion company went BK. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can cut and splice duct when going over and under obstacles. >>>>>>>> If doing direct burial you would be doing giant figure 8s or cutting >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> splicing every time you hit a culvert or other shallow facility. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can blow another fiber over the top of an existing fiber. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fewer fiber cuts and splices etc. In my opinion you don’t save >>>>>>>> that much money with direct burial. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Chris Fabien >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2018 10:53 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know we've had this discussion before.... we don't have gophers >>>>>>>> in Michigan. Only damage we have had on direct bury was due to gas >>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>> Yeah it was a pain to fix, about 8 hours of downtime. But the cost >>>>>>>> savings >>>>>>>> is worth it to me for my network. We are doing FTTH so we do have more >>>>>>>> handholes for test points. Usually at least 6 per mile. Don't know >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> Steve is or how well funded so just sharing a lower cost option, I >>>>>>>> guess. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 12:15 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The worst part of direct burial is gopher damage. And they will >>>>>>>> eat it up on 100 places but they may not fail until there is some >>>>>>>> nearby >>>>>>>> vibration. They seem to have the ability to eat up the cable but >>>>>>>> leave the >>>>>>>> strands intact or just break one or two of them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, you first have to find the damage and in long rural stretches >>>>>>>> that can be difficult, more so with direct because you have to dig, >>>>>>>> cut, >>>>>>>> test, dig cut test. With duct you just pull on it and see if it moves. >>>>>>>> OTDRs are not precision measuring devices. Even if they are +-1% >>>>>>>> accurate, >>>>>>>> that is 52 feet of uncertainty in a mile. So you shoot both ends and >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> extrapolate the center of overlap or gap. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pray, dig, cut, test, splice, pray, dig, cuts, test, splice. >>>>>>>> Repeat until you get there. After some time you will have it >>>>>>>> bracketed and >>>>>>>> many times you just replace 1000’ instead of actually finding and >>>>>>>> fixing >>>>>>>> the problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All the while customers are very unhappy. I have had it take a >>>>>>>> week to fix very long remote troubles like this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Colin Stanners >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2018 9:56 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We also usually install a second duct on all major routes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chuck, with your long career, I assume that you've had a few cases >>>>>>>> where direct burial took a long time/difficulties to fix? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now working in the long-distance/underground industry, doing all >>>>>>>> the planning and permitting, I've seen our guys pull up things - >>>>>>>> including >>>>>>>> a boulder the size of a car - from the ground so that they could get >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> conduit through. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 10:48 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I never do direct burial any more. Not even on drops. Generally I >>>>>>>> install an extra duct, I like duralines future path products if I can >>>>>>>> justify the expense. I need to learn how to install microduct into >>>>>>>> regular >>>>>>>> duct. I am sure I can pull it but I would like to figure out how to >>>>>>>> blow >>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Colin Stanners >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2018 9:42 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I try hard to steer clear of direct-burying cable, which is much >>>>>>>> easier to damage and extremely time-consuming to repair, unless it's a >>>>>>>> non-crucial line (e.g. standard residential customer, although those we >>>>>>>> currently put in conduit as well, to keep future risk and repair costs >>>>>>>> low). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If this customer is paying 1/4 million to get a line installed, >>>>>>>> it's probably crucial. One day when that line gets hit, if it's in >>>>>>>> conduit >>>>>>>> it's likely possible to get it repaired within hours to a day. I've >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>> heard of cases of the fiber surviving a conduit-line hit since it's >>>>>>>> "loose" >>>>>>>> inside the conduit and has slack at the ends. If a direct-buried line >>>>>>>> gets >>>>>>>> hit, especially next to a road etc, it may be needed to get locates, >>>>>>>> arrange a drill, electrical/gas line safety watch, etc, possibly even >>>>>>>> arrange more permitting for a new vault, which will often move time to >>>>>>>> repair to days or a week+. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 9:28 AM Chris Fabien <ch...@lakenetmi.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve in our area we could do that "on the cheap" with 12 or 24 >>>>>>>> count cable direct buried for around 100k. There are so many variables >>>>>>>> though. You really need someone who has done work in that area and is >>>>>>>> familiar with permitting costs and requirements. I'd it's so rural >>>>>>>> that you >>>>>>>> can plow the bulk of it and you are OK with direct bury you can save a >>>>>>>> ton >>>>>>>> of money vs putting it all in duct. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Personally I run at least 24 strands on any run that's going >>>>>>>> "somewhere". Dead end runs can be 12F. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 1:46 AM Steve Jones < >>>>>>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If a guy wanted to get fiber in the ground, non aerial between two >>>>>>>> buildings to replace an existing licensed 1.3 gb link. Crosses 3 >>>>>>>> creek/ditches, 10 rural intersections, 10 rural town blocks. What >>>>>>>> would be >>>>>>>> needed? >>>>>>>> I would guess that duct is the best thing to put it in, innerduct >>>>>>>> being better. >>>>>>>> I'd guess 96+ count isn't going to cost any more per strand to put >>>>>>>> in the duct than 2 (not the cost of the fiber itself) >>>>>>>> Lots of dark strands and duct space is probably lucrative to have >>>>>>>> just in case. >>>>>>>> Slack, handholes, vaults, etc, what would you put in there? 10 or >>>>>>>> so customers on the path so not a ftth type thing. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Tim Cailloux >>>>>>> Southern Internet -- Locally Owned and Operated >>>>>>> t...@southern-internet.com >>>>>>> (404) 406-9911 >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AF mailing list >>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > > > ------------------------------ > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- Carl Peterson *PORT NETWORKS* 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553 Baltimore, MD 21202 (410) 637-3707
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