So how do you avoid aggregate loss on longer hauls if theres a fusion splice every 2 to 4 miles? 10gb, as i understand it has very low tolerances even to fusion splice loss (per the corning free sandwich thing i went to)
And splice cost on 10 miles if you do 4 in the middle and 2+2 on the ends is five splices per strand including the termination. On 96 count thats close to 500 splices, we pay 50 to 70 a splice on tower fiber, thats like at least 30 bucks. When you get into this type of work are splices less money on average? Thats like 25k in splices otherwise, with like 60 to 80k in fiber. Im just not understanding where a guy stays 35 or under a mile when youre burning that kind of dough before you even get to manpower, equipment, traffic control, handholes, and permits. On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 2:44 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > The big problem is friction. Hard to blow more than about 10,000’ in one > stretch. The blower gets slower and slower an finally comes to a halt. If > you set up in the middle of the stretch, you can blow one direction and > then use a fig 8 machine to pull the remainder off the reel and start > blowing in the other direction. > > *From:* Adam Moffett > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 5, 2019 1:36 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber > > 10,000ft reels are a manageable size. Those are 5' diameter and a couple > hundred pounds. > If I do 20,000ft then contractors grumble about moving them. > > Someone on Quora said they were running long haul off 20km reels. They > must have spooled it off a tractor trailer or a railroad car. > > > On 3/5/2019 3:26 PM, Steve Jones wrote: > > i cant count that high > > but i would like to see that volume terminated. > > Off the termination subject though, what are the logistics on 10 miles of > ducted fiber? Is it blown the whole ten miles in a single shot or spliced > at the intermediate handholes? Im trying to understand how handholes come > in to play in the path and what a reel with 10 miles+ fiber on it looks like > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 2:19 PM TJ Trout <t...@voltbb.com> wrote: > >> hehe 96, what about a 864 or 3456 count :) >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:44 AM Chris Fabien <ch...@lakenetmi.com> wrote: >> >>> Usually a rack mount patch & splice panel. Big box with 96 connectors on >>> the front and room for splice trays in the back. >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:55 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Out of curiosity, What does a 96 count terminate to at each end? Would >>>> you go into just a big wall of pigtails or what. Not being a smart ass >>>> here, I really dont know how you would manage that volume of fibers coming >>>> in the wall >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 11:33 AM Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Both? Still working on it. At the costs some of these guys want, I'll >>>>> likely just be hiring dirt work. >>>>> >>>>> I got a quote of $3/ft just to draw lines on a map when I knew someone >>>>> building the whole thing for $7. Uh, no thanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From: *"Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>> *Sent: *Friday, February 15, 2019 10:49:53 AM >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> What did you have quoted? just dirt work or project end to end? >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:33 PM Tim Cailloux < >>>>> t...@southern-internet.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You're not obligated by GAAP to treat book value of an asset as >>>>>> commercial value (i.e. "mark to market"), so it's appropriate to treat >>>>>> fiber as a long-lived depreciating asset. >>>>>> >>>>>> There may be some interesting accounting if you sign an IRU, and it >>>>>> turns out that accountants wrote a white paper on that: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAssets/ey-spotlight-on-telecommunications-accounting/$FILE/ey-spotlight-on-telecommunications-accounting-issue2.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> I would be surprised if states have unfavorable tax treatment of >>>>>> fiber builds, and may even encourage it and give tax discounts. In >>>>>> Georgia, for example, tax credits are given to telecommunication builds. >>>>>> >>>>>> tim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:44 PM Tim Withrow via AF <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> How is the yearly taxes on the physical fiber asset, in the states >>>>>>> that tax it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it a depreciating asset, or one that gains value generally? >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 Mike Hammett <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I found a crew that'll do a ballpark drill cost of $7. I haven't >>>>>>> gotten any details yet about restoration, potholing, etc. I have some >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> crews to follow up on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was really targeting that for my total price due to what I heard >>>>>>> others in Indiana are paying, but it seems like I won't get there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *From: *ch...@wbmfg.com >>>>>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 13, 2019 11:05:56 AM >>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Directional drilling will cost from $15-$25/ft. >>>>>>> Plowing about $4 - $6/ft >>>>>>> Excavation $8 –$15/ft >>>>>>> Blowing $.50 - $1/ft >>>>>>> Splicing $10-$20 per burn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Mike Hammett >>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 13, 2019 9:59 AM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been asking around for companies to do a bunch of build up >>>>>>> here. I haven't liked most of the quotes I've seen. I'll let you know >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> I end up doing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, I was probably going to do everything other than the dirt >>>>>>> work myself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *From: *"Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >>>>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 13, 2019 10:47:01 AM >>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In illinois, who would be a project contractor to approach for a >>>>>>> legitimate quote on a fiber project like this? Start to finish, >>>>>>> permitting, >>>>>>> product spec, duct, fiber, terminations, handhole/vaults, trench/bore, >>>>>>> etc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 4:47 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cost >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> oh. I cant see that if we ever did this type of fiber we would >>>>>>> direct bury. aside from cost is there any reason one wouldnt duct? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I like 100’ in each handhole. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:10 AM, Mark Radabaugh <m...@amplex.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:00 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 300k was a quote at one point. Weve got a little under half that in >>>>>>> microwave solutions spread over the years and we are coming up on >>>>>>> consistent 1/3 capacity with spikes over half, so we will outgrow that >>>>>>> investment again in a relatively short period. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 30k / mile is pretty typical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "You can cut and splice duct when going over and under obstacles. >>>>>>> If doing direct burial you would be doing giant figure 8s or cutting and >>>>>>> splicing every time you hit a culvert or other shallow facility." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I assume these figure8 are slack and in handhole/vaults? so in rural >>>>>>> areas, at least 1 per mile since theres a road every mile? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nope. The figure-8 is how you have to handle the cable when >>>>>>> installing it if you don’t have duct. When direct burying the cable >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> have to take the spool with you as you go since you can’t pull cable >>>>>>> once >>>>>>> it’s buried. Every time you need to pass under an obstacle you either >>>>>>> have to cut the fiber and splice it back together or pull the entire >>>>>>> remainder of the cable off the real, store it temporarily, shove the end >>>>>>> under the obstacle and then reel up all the cable again. It’s a >>>>>>> seriously >>>>>>> labor intensive process and you risk damaging the cable every time you >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whats the rule of thumb on slack? is there a percentage? like say >>>>>>> for every 1000 feet you have x feet of slack? I aasume when an auger >>>>>>> hits >>>>>>> the duct it will pull alot of that slack? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 10% >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 12:04 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Duct can be had for 35 cents / foot or less. I was getting it for >>>>>>> 28 cents until the extrusion company went BK. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can cut and splice duct when going over and under obstacles. If >>>>>>> doing direct burial you would be doing giant figure 8s or cutting and >>>>>>> splicing every time you hit a culvert or other shallow facility. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can blow another fiber over the top of an existing fiber. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fewer fiber cuts and splices etc. In my opinion you don’t save that >>>>>>> much money with direct burial. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Chris Fabien >>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2018 10:53 AM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know we've had this discussion before.... we don't have gophers in >>>>>>> Michigan. Only damage we have had on direct bury was due to gas company. >>>>>>> Yeah it was a pain to fix, about 8 hours of downtime. But the cost >>>>>>> savings >>>>>>> is worth it to me for my network. We are doing FTTH so we do have more >>>>>>> handholes for test points. Usually at least 6 per mile. Don't know where >>>>>>> Steve is or how well funded so just sharing a lower cost option, I >>>>>>> guess. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 12:15 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The worst part of direct burial is gopher damage. And they will eat >>>>>>> it up on 100 places but they may not fail until there is some nearby >>>>>>> vibration. They seem to have the ability to eat up the cable but leave >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> strands intact or just break one or two of them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, you first have to find the damage and in long rural stretches >>>>>>> that can be difficult, more so with direct because you have to dig, cut, >>>>>>> test, dig cut test. With duct you just pull on it and see if it moves. >>>>>>> OTDRs are not precision measuring devices. Even if they are +-1% >>>>>>> accurate, >>>>>>> that is 52 feet of uncertainty in a mile. So you shoot both ends and >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> extrapolate the center of overlap or gap. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pray, dig, cut, test, splice, pray, dig, cuts, test, splice. >>>>>>> Repeat until you get there. After some time you will have it bracketed >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> many times you just replace 1000’ instead of actually finding and fixing >>>>>>> the problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the while customers are very unhappy. I have had it take a week >>>>>>> to fix very long remote troubles like this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Colin Stanners >>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2018 9:56 AM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We also usually install a second duct on all major routes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Chuck, with your long career, I assume that you've had a few cases >>>>>>> where direct burial took a long time/difficulties to fix? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now working in the long-distance/underground industry, doing all the >>>>>>> planning and permitting, I've seen our guys pull up things - including >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> boulder the size of a car - from the ground so that they could get that >>>>>>> conduit through. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 10:48 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I never do direct burial any more. Not even on drops. Generally I >>>>>>> install an extra duct, I like duralines future path products if I can >>>>>>> justify the expense. I need to learn how to install microduct into >>>>>>> regular >>>>>>> duct. I am sure I can pull it but I would like to figure out how to >>>>>>> blow >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Colin Stanners >>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2018 9:42 AM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 10 mile fiber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I try hard to steer clear of direct-burying cable, which is much >>>>>>> easier to damage and extremely time-consuming to repair, unless it's a >>>>>>> non-crucial line (e.g. standard residential customer, although those we >>>>>>> currently put in conduit as well, to keep future risk and repair costs >>>>>>> low). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If this customer is paying 1/4 million to get a line installed, it's >>>>>>> probably crucial. One day when that line gets hit, if it's in conduit >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> likely possible to get it repaired within hours to a day. I've even >>>>>>> heard >>>>>>> of cases of the fiber surviving a conduit-line hit since it's "loose" >>>>>>> inside the conduit and has slack at the ends. If a direct-buried line >>>>>>> gets >>>>>>> hit, especially next to a road etc, it may be needed to get locates, >>>>>>> arrange a drill, electrical/gas line safety watch, etc, possibly even >>>>>>> arrange more permitting for a new vault, which will often move time to >>>>>>> repair to days or a week+. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 9:28 AM Chris Fabien <ch...@lakenetmi.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve in our area we could do that "on the cheap" with 12 or 24 >>>>>>> count cable direct buried for around 100k. There are so many variables >>>>>>> though. You really need someone who has done work in that area and is >>>>>>> familiar with permitting costs and requirements. I'd it's so rural that >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can plow the bulk of it and you are OK with direct bury you can save a >>>>>>> ton >>>>>>> of money vs putting it all in duct. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally I run at least 24 strands on any run that's going >>>>>>> "somewhere". Dead end runs can be 12F. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 1:46 AM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If a guy wanted to get fiber in the ground, non aerial between two >>>>>>> buildings to replace an existing licensed 1.3 gb link. Crosses 3 >>>>>>> creek/ditches, 10 rural intersections, 10 rural town blocks. What would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> needed? >>>>>>> I would guess that duct is the best thing to put it in, innerduct >>>>>>> being better. >>>>>>> I'd guess 96+ count isn't going to cost any more per strand to put >>>>>>> in the duct than 2 (not the cost of the fiber itself) >>>>>>> Lots of dark strands and duct space is probably lucrative to have >>>>>>> just in case. >>>>>>> Slack, handholes, vaults, etc, what would you put in there? 10 or so >>>>>>> customers on the path so not a ftth type thing. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tim Cailloux >>>>>> Southern Internet -- Locally Owned and Operated >>>>>> t...@southern-internet.com >>>>>> (404) 406-9911 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AF mailing list >>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AF mailing list >>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > > > ------------------------------ > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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