You could do XPIC with any set of used radios and get that performance, with the same spectral efficiency, possibly higher cost, but also a more comprehensive set of features.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Faisal Imtiaz" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 11:28:29 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? >>if you only had one polarity available, I think there would probably be some >>better options, I have both polarities available, I can choose to forego one polarity.. .what would be a better option ? >>but for 400+ meg links, I don't think there's anything else that comes close >>on price, Yes, only other radios that can do better with such a channel are the IP20c/ Cambium 820c / SAIE Alfoplus2 etc which will deliever 700meg - 800meg duplex but at the 4 to 5 time more $$ >>> My main worry is that we aren't going to be able to get enough speed out of >>> these things for a lot of links, which is why I would've liked the option >>> to use 80mhz channels. Agreed as a general concern, and in many parts of the country "beggars cannot be choosers:" is the appropriate statement describing the availability of an open channel in 11ghz... :) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mathew Howard" <[email protected]> To: "af" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 11:58:38 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? <blockquote> Oh, no argument from me... the AF-11x sounds like a good fit for that link. I certainly don't think they're bad radios, and I'm sure we'll be getting a few of them. If you only had one polarity available, I think there would probably be some better options, but for 400+ meg links, I don't think there's anything else that comes close on price, other than the B11, which certainly doesn't have better spectral efficiency. My main worry is that we aren't going to be able to get enough speed out of these things for a lot of links, which is why I would've liked the option to use 80mhz channels. On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Faisal Imtiaz < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> This is like the conversation about if this Glass is half full or half empty. Ok, so enlighten me... (cause I am going thru the process right now). I need to have 400/500meg of duplex thruput (tcp) I have a single 40Mhz Channel available (both polarities), on this particular path. BTW it is 9mile link, and we cannot use more than 2ft dishes. What radios do you suggest I use to accomplish this ? Yes, there is a budget, but it does not necessarily call to go with the cheapest solution. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] <blockquote> From: "Mathew Howard" < [email protected] > To: "af" < [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 10:08:29 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? </blockquote> <blockquote> Yeah... those numbers really aren't great, and I don't see how they can say it's one of the most spectrally efficient radios... Comparing 56mhz SISO should be a direct comparison to our old SAF Lumina, but the efficiency us actually much worse... it isn't even doing as good at 1024qam as the SAF does at 256qam. The thing that bugs me is that it could be so much better with just a few minor changes... I personally don't care that much about sfp, but there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it not being there, and if mikrotik can put sfp ports on $40 routers, I can't believe it's a cost issue... and using N connectors is just weird. The biggest issue for me is being limited to 56mhz channels, but that one I guess could be to keep costs down... and if it does make it significantly cheaper, they probably made the right choice. On Nov 19, 2016 8:45 PM, "Mike Hammett" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Cut them in half because those are aggregate numbers. 250 megabit per polarity isn't bad for $700 in the licensed world, but it's not the cream of the crop they're putting it out to be. I believe the best numbers out there so far are about 15% under the data sheet, so knock about 40 megs off of that. But the raw performance isn't my point. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Jon Langeler" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 8:40:27 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? Speeds at 40Mhz single or dual pol Jon Langeler Michwave Technologies, Inc. On Nov 19, 2016, at 9:37 PM, Mike Hammett < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Which numbers are you referring to? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Jon Langeler" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 8:36:35 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/airfiber/airFiber_AF-11FX_DS.pdf Looks like good numbers to me. Jon Langeler Michwave Technologies, Inc. On Nov 19, 2016, at 8:44 PM, Mike Hammett < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> I'm not sure how I can make my message any more clear. It seems as though no one gets what I'm saying. Mike hates UBNT. Mike hates the AF11FX. Mike hates vendors. Mike hates baby Jesus and the Easter Bunny. Mike hates ice cream. Mike wants his radios with nickle-plated ivory for $0.05. It's half-assed. It's more of the UBNT 90 - 95% engineering. It's almost a great product, but because they didn't bother to engage their customer base or actually look at what the rest of the market was doing, it has come up short in a few ways. I'm not saying the product is junk. I'm not saying I won't buy one. I'm disparaging the lack of research by UBNT when setting out the boxes to be checked as design went on. It's a case of Applism. We'll make what we want and our people will buy it regardless if it makes sense or not. Also, they claim it's among the most spectrally efficient radios out there, but it simply isn't. Other than the B11, it isn't any more efficient than anything else made in the last several years. It delivers 500 - 600 megabit in what amounts to 112 MHz of spectrum. That's 357 megabit in 80 MHz. That's fairly normal for a 256 QAM single polarity radio. The SAF Lumina did that in 56 MHz in 2009. I'm sure you could find single polarity 256 QAM radios pretty cheap on the used market.... and they'd come with fiber and direct mounts. I've done this dance a few times and few people ever get it. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Faisal Imtiaz" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:16:44 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? I have been reading this thread, and following this circular, arm-chair 'product designer' conversation.... Mike, I am going to call you out... What exactly is your gripe... I am happy to see a 'cheaper radio'. What wrong with that ? What do you think is available in the market space that is a 'better performing' than an AF11x ? Is it perfect ? no, but does it hold it's own, yes, is it comparable to others, not possible to do apples to apples comparison..... If you tell me that you are coming from a Tech Purist perspective, then yes, lots of things can be different. But if you are arguing from a product availability in the market space.. please enlighten me with your thoughts.. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] <blockquote> From: "Mike Hammett" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 6:31:36 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? </blockquote> <blockquote> It's a sign of it being the cheapest radio on the market, not a sign of it being what the customer really wanted. That or they don't realize it's shortcomings yet or they're not educated enough to know the difference. I would say most of the UBNT operator community isn't nearly as educated as they should be. Again, because someone buys it doesn't mean it's what they wanted. Sales are absolutely NOT an indicator of that. Sales are an indicator of what they were willing to settle for. I'll probably settle for them and contribute to the sales numbers being used against my argument. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Ben Moore" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 5:16:34 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? I don't care if they are living on the North Pole in an igloo as long as designing killer radios that customers are buying :). The fact that the AF-11FX orders are so high is a good sign that customers want it and are very comfortable with it after the success of the AF24 and AF5. Thanks, Ben On Nov 19, 2016, at 4:10 PM, Mike Hammett < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Them listening or not listening isn't the end-all be-all for purchase decisions. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 5:05:09 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? You're right, people were so dumb they kept coming back. /s On Nov 19, 2016 3:06 PM, "Mike Hammett" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Just because there are sales doesn't mean they listen. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 12:42:04 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? Keep in mind that AFMUG and even the WISPA list is an echo chamber. What one needs, another does not. There are some very vocal people in these communities. That said, I have spent years talking directly with Matt, Ben, Robert and many of the developers. They are often out of touch, but sometimes it's actually myself that is. When you can post a 20-40mil gain in a single quarter time after time on a given line without direct sales, you are doing something right. On Nov 19, 2016 11:27 AM, "Mike Hammett" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Seeing what they put out, not having a clue what the competition is already doing and the ignoring of their customers and super users means they're out of touch. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:10:04 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? If they were really that out of touch given the context of the world market, they wouldn't have product lines doubling in net revenue quarter over quarter. On Nov 19, 2016 7:27 AM, "Mike Hammett" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Yeah, but they have a fundamental problem. Company-wide they are out of touch with their customers and what they need as well as what the rest of the market offers. Examples: Still no SFPs on radios. AF11 has a channel width from the 2000s. AF11 isn't nearly as spectrally efficient as they think it is. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Josh Reynolds" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 10:14:45 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? I know of a company that already has 8 links deployed that they replaced existing radios with. They built their own radio core. (Second time for UBNT, if you count Invictus core and then this one... Not counting the ones they made before UBNT.) You underestimate them a lot. They're making more money across the board and investing even more money in R&D and labor than they ever have. The past few years they've made major internal changes, and things are just now starting to bare fruit from those decisions. They also have a huge cash reserve, and it wouldn't surprise me at all for them to start making acquisitions if they choose to. On Nov 18, 2016 9:50 PM, "That One Guy /sarcasm" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> this isnt my usual asshole distrust of UBNT, I know UBNT chuck is behind it, so its solid gear, but are people really ready to put their faith in the limited and $ spectrum on UBNT? On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Josh Reynolds < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> They are designing for a lot of different mounting options, but they have to hit the ones that are the easiest sells out the gate. Stay tuned. On Nov 18, 2016 5:44 PM, "George Skorup" < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> We have RadioWaves HP2 and HP3s' in a couple flavors. HPx-11R, Remec round for Trango ApexPlus and HPx-11EX, for Exalt G2. Then we have Trango AD11G2-S2's and 3-S2's for ApexPlus, Remec round. So obviously we wouldn't be able to do the feedhorn swap on those. The RadioWaves 11EX are single-pol only, so those would need the feedhorn swapped. But the 11R is where it makes sense for the Remec adapter plate, especially in the case of the Trango dishes. So for me it would come down to $250-300? for the adapter plate vs $400? for a new RW feedhorn vs $1k for a whole new dish. This would probably be half as difficult if UBNT would've designed for waveguide, IMO. On 11/18/2016 2:13 PM, Brad Belton wrote: <blockquote> Right, I see the RadioWaves DP N-Type feed, but we�re looking/hoping someone comes out with a REMEC round to DP N-Type adapter.� � Quicker, cheaper than replacing the feed horn and could be used on any antenna with a REMEC round feed horn�not just a RadioWaves antenna. � Brad � From: [email protected] [ mailto:[email protected] ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 2:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? � Non-UBNT licensed dish to N connectors and radio mount. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Brad Belton" < [email protected] > To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 2:06:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? So, what are we looking for?� SFP port? � I don�t see any REMEC round to dual polarity N-Type adapters in your pictures!� <grin> � Brad � From: [email protected] [ mailto:[email protected] ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 2:02 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [WISPA Members] Who will have AF-11X First? � https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp/photos/a.997555730369879.1073741834.186874744771319/997557797036339/?type=3&theater ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> ... </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
