Mike: That's what evolution does on the genetic level - incorporate new genes, not just permutate the old ones.
Genes consist of sequences of 4 nucleic acids: A, T, G, A C. Any newness in a gene is not introduced by what the gene is built from. It is introduced by the unique *combination* of those same basic building blocks. Likewise, in Genetic Programming, basic programming elements are put together in new *combinations*, producing novelty >>in the same way<<. -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Oct 19, 2012 7:12 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: EA's/GA's endlessly permutate the SAME elements - and don't produce new elements. I've already discussed this a few posts back. And they LOOK like they only do the same thing - e.g. endless variations on electric circuits, but they can't generate new elements and go on to say, water or oil piping systems, or aquifers, or blood circulation. EA's can't even function without human guidance, period. And then there's the weasel - "how would you know it's creative?" There is no problem deciding what is creative - it involves incorporating new elements into activities - and thus finding new ways of achieving goals. That's what evolution does on the genetic level - incorporate new genes, not just permutate the old ones. Humans and animals never cease to incorporate new elements into their activities - to talk about new things, to navigate new fields, terrains, rooms, houses, urban environments, to handle new objects, new tools, new machines, new sports implements, new balls, new concepts, new ideas, new paradigms ... As for Ben, he has never faced the problem of AGI in his life. Ask him what ideas he has for AGI take-off/creativity. Deutsch has a point. The simple truth is that everyone is too scared to face the problem. . -----Original Message----- From: Mike Archbold Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 12:31 PM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] ONE EXAMPLE The problem with your approach is that you are still left only with your own subjective judgement as far as what does and does not constitute creativity, and I would even suspect that some parts of this judgement process are in themselves an algorithm. Also, I think you criticize the various grounds for AI -- you seem to dislike things like logic and algorithms -- but I'm not sure if you consider that these are just the building blocks to be used within a larger whole, not wholly of themselves a solution... Criticize Ben's approach all you want, but at least he is trying to incorporate multiple elements into his design. But to answer your main question, a single example of creativity is to be found in evolutionary computing. Here algorithms are generated and tested, as we know, and the fittest algorithm wins out for the next round. The end result is the unforseen solution to some problem in question. An unforeseen solution is a creative solution as far as I'm concerned. This is just a mimicking of the same strategy nature has used for countless eons. You could counter, "well, an accident is not creative, it is not willful," but so what? Again we are back to what you consider creative. On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: > > MA:You've been kind of dancing around all the examples people have been > feeding you. > > There has been no example of genuine generativity. Period. If you or > anyone else feels that a given example is not being sufficiently > discussed, I will gladly discuss it in depth. > > Do you personally think that there IS an example? Put it forward . This > is the crucial issue of AGI – it should be discussed seriously. > > On my side, I haven’t yet, but I can gladly give you endless and > spectrum-wide examples of how ALL REAL WORLD PROBLEMSOLVING CANNOT BE > SOLVED BY ALGORITHMIC MEANS. That’s 90-odd per cent, I would guess, of > all human reasoning. You guys similarly to the above, almost never discuss > real world problemsolving – just logic, maths and programming problems. > You can’t get much more blinkered than that. > > MA: you never answered my suggestion that an algorithms need only appear > to be creative to pass the Turing test > > Huh? You want to try and fake it? Step back a moment and think of what a > twisted, “dancing around” mindset you are embracing – wh. is the kind of > twisted thinking that most AGI-ers seem to fall into when confronted by > the non-generativity of algorithms. > > No. Algorithms will never in any shape or form pass any Turing test – i.e. > be able to hold a real world conversation. > > Why? Because real world conversation is creative – it involves a > continuous stream of new elements and new,non-formulaic combinations of > concepts – and their real world referents. We continually talk about the > “news” – from media to professional to personal – and it really is > “news” – never before happened quite like that. > > Algorithms can’t handle the possible new combinations of just *two* or > *three* concepts let alone a full-blown conversation. > > This is one reason why what Aaron & others are doing – trying for a > language/conversational AGI – is suicidal. The *first* thing he should be > doing is asking: how can I produce/process creative/generative > conversation? But he like nearly all others avoids the challenge. > > > > > > > From: Mike Archbold > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 11:41 AM > To: AGI > Subject: Re: [agi] ONE EXAMPLE > > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:07 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> You’ve been predictable and produced a lot of personal waffle - >> >> but not ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of a single creative thing – a single new >> element - that algorithms have ever produced. > > > > > You've been kind of dancing around all the examples people have been > feeding you. I think one thing you ignore is that people are kind of > tiresome in their application of algorithms and are far from really having > an elusive undefined creative element. eg., if so-and-so is a certain > social class and does such-and-such, then I am supposed to do so-and-so or > risk some undesirable-outcome....but some new social situation arises, > unforseen, now a new rule is needed, so we apply whatever algorithms we > seem to have that work.... > > anyway you never answered my suggestion that an algorithms need only > appear to be creative to pass the Turing test. If it appears to be > creative then it is creative, meaning only that somebody has not picked up > on the "trick." Also, evolution, built into the universe, runs off > accidents and survival of the fittest which creates the appearance of > being creative. SO you are left with your own subjective assessment only > of what does and does not constitute creativity. And how do you know your > own assessments of creativity are not themselves bounded by some > algorithm? > >> >> >> It should strike you as extraordinary that no one can produce one >> example – nada. >> >> ..unless you’re prepared to look at the obvious. >> >> The whole of technology so far – esp algorithmic technology – has been >> about machines that produce routine, predicable, “old” courses of action >> and products. Algorithms – all zillions of them – have never produced a >> single new element. You can’t produce one fucking example because there >> isn’t one. >> >> AGI will be a revolution – a whole new epoch of technology - because it >> will be about machines that can produce NEW courses of action and >> products – with NEW combinations of elements – and do so endlessly with >> endless diversity and endless surprises and unpredictability. Like you – >> only hopefully you will start producing something newer than excuses... >> >> From: Aaron Hosford >> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:17 AM >> To: AGI >> Subject: Re: [agi] ONE EXAMPLE >> >> Funny you should say that when he just said *you're* sticking to a >> primitive definition of "algorithm". You can't imagine anything *people* >> do (in particular anyone on this list, since that's a convenient group to >> pick on) that's new or creative. Maybe it's *your* creativity that's >> limited, in that your imagination can't follow where our imaginations >> tread. I can easily imagine a program (not an algorithm, mind you, but a >> collection of data structures and algorithms interacting with the real >> world in all its glorious complexity and surprisingness) from which >> creativity emerges. How did all those fonts come about? The randomness of >> the real world, interacting with the pattern recognizers and learning >> mechanisms that live in the human mind. Nobody thought them up from >> scratch. >> >> I'm a musician and songwriter in my spare time, which requires >> creativity. The worst insult to a song writer is to say that it sounds >> just like another song (unless all he cares about is getting paid, in >> which case formulas work great). When I write songs, I start by picking >> up the guitar, and fiddling around randomly until I hear something >> interesting come out. Then I reverse engineer what I just accidentally >> produced, and I start thinking about how to generalize the "feel" of it >> so I can produce more that goes with it. I try things out, and build onto >> it, not by thinking ahead, but by stumbling in the right direction and >> either backtracking if it sucks or holding on to what I've done if it >> sounds good. This goes on throughout the entire process of writing a >> song. My experience as a song writer serves as a general guide to >> determine the direction I'm going in and reduce the number of bad ideas >> and false starts I have to try out before I stumble onto a good one, but >> ultimately writing a song comes down to accumulating a lot of awesome >> mistakes together according to a strict measure of what sounds good to >> me. >> >> This, I suspect, is exactly what other artists and creators go through >> when they create anything at all. There's nothing particularly hard about >> implementing any of this in a computer program aside from determining the >> measure of goodness, which we humans have built in due to evolution. To >> make it general across multiple domains and not just one, we would have >> to also build in a way to detect the space of possibilities, such as that >> for a guitar, there are such-and-such notes, or for a canvas, there are x >> and y coordinates related to each other by a Euclidean distance metric. >> This is also do-able, albeit probably a lot more difficult. >> >> How much experience do you personally have with creating things, that you >> can sit in judgment of us and say we don't know what creativity much less >> how to build it? Are you a musician? An artist? A programmer? A writer? A >> philosopher? What? >> >> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Frankly, Jim, definitions are for wankers. The last resort of s.o. who >>> doesn’t want to get anywhere. >>> >>> Your ideas about algorithms’ powers are fictional. There isn’t an >>> algorithm in the world that isn’t mindblowingly limited – that just >>> “builds” Lego houses and no other kind of structure, or “cooks” one set >>> of dishes and nothing else. >>> >>> Take just about any verb you like – “travel”, “fly”, “calculate”, >>> “compute,” “translate,” et al – and an algorithm will only be able to do >>> one hyperspecialised version, compared to the infinite possibilities. >>> >>> Show us something actual and general/creative, with new elements, that >>> algos can do - or please stop wasting air. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jim Bromer >>> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 3:13 PM >>> To: AGI >>> Subject: Re: [agi] ONE EXAMPLE >>> >>> Mike, >>> How many times does it take to get this idea across to you. You are >>> confusing a primitive definition of algorithm - which might be currently >>> acceptable to many people - as a fundamental notion of the >>> characterization of a computer program. >>> Jim >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Mike Tintner >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> P.P.P.S. Just to ram this home - >>>> >>>> UNLESS you do something like I’ve suggested, (and I know none of you >>>> have) - >>>> >>>> a) tackle a proper creative problem (and what better than >>>> geometrical/math ones for you?) - >>>> >>>> (you don’t have to come anywhere near solving it, just have a go at >>>> it), and then >>>> >>>> b) try and algorithmise/systematise your thinking - >>>> >>>> unless you do that, you will NEVER understand AGI. >>>> >>>> If you do, note what is the “set of elements”/options to be thought >>>> about here? 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