Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense that it should have kept improving over the years. That improvement might have been slow and uneven but it should have worked. What we see now is that most of the creative processes seem to occur within neural nets, especially in hybrids that use both neural nets and systems that have been designed for more discrete (or more discrete-like) kinds of reasoning.
If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? To say that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to actually express consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, needs a lot of supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a good theory but if it can't pull its own weight then it is just dreaming. You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a person is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable of strong reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and differentiate data based on abstract principles. A learning program could then turn new learning into abstract principles which could be used to integrate and differentiate new data. But a program that did that would not have to be thinking or learning in a useful way. Jim Bromer On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >> Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive >> consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). > > Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is > determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by activity. > >> But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness >> be zombie like? > > It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to > spring into action. > >> You are suggesting that there may be something in between but >> which has very limited effects. > > I'm not sure what you are referring to. > >> That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts >> is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an AI >> application without awaking it? > > well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure and > connections. So if you have access to that information, can be done > in an offline setting. > > It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it > could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. > > Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU resources, > but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective nothing is > happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. > > > >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >>>>> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how >>>>> Tononi defines consciousness. I've studied it very >>>>> generally, but not in detail. Intuitively, he seems to have >>>>> identified an essential component but by no means >>>>> everything.... Obviously our consciousness is saturated in >>>>> feedback, but just having a feedback property does not make a >>>>> computer conscious. What is a more complete definition under >>>>> IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I have seen of IIT >>>>> looks interesting. >>>>> >> >> >> "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is >> full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute >> to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with >> respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal >> interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical >> observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived >> directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. >> Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement >> for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and >> exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions >> among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual >> occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is >> usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be >> conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons >> may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 >> >> >> Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 >> >> Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and >> Exclusion. >> >> Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be >> interconnected. >> >> Information implies that there are past memories which can affect >> present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect >> future actions. >> >> And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. >> >> >> It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program >> switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain >> that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after >> some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, >> they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. >> >> It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as >> passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. >> Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I >> think there would be some question as to the quality of >> consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a >> low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local >> or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and >> would be a singular consciousness. >> >>>>> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly >>>>>> both intelligent and independent. It appears to have >>>>>> abilities approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and >>>>>> often works at cross purposes to your conscious intentions >>>>>> to keep you alive and healthy. >>>>>> >>>>>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic >>>>>> possession. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in >>>>>> my brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback >>>>>> loops exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist >>>>>> in the brain, but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have >>>>>> but one. For both of those reasons consciousness and neural >>>>>> net feedback loops are not one and the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of >>>>>>> the minimum for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not >>>>>>> realize that 'stateless' 'pure functions' could be called >>>>>>> 'feed forward'. If global effects were sufficient to >>>>>>> induce 'consciousness' then any program with global >>>>>>> effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >>>>>>> were being more specific than that I still don't think >>>>>>> structures that can carry states between calls (in the >>>>>>> ways that you were thinking) would be sufficient for >>>>>>> conscious behaviors to emerge.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim Bromer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for >>>>>>>> a while but I finally sat down and read the whole >>>>>>>> thing yesterday. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are >>>>>>>> 'zombies' or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are >>>>>>>> conscious due to the feedback loops. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming >>>>>>>> structures are 'zombies' and which are conscious. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure >>>>>>>> functions are zombies since they simply feed forward. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such >>>>>>>> as objects and actors are conscious. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do you concur? 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