It can and has been demonstrated, how about doing research before making accusations?
On February 17, 2017 6:05:51 PM EST, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: >To say that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to actually >express >consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, it would need a lot of >supporting reasoning. >Jim Bromer > > >On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> >wrote: >> Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense that >> it should have kept improving over the years. That improvement might >> have been slow and uneven but it should have worked. What we see now >> is that most of the creative processes seem to occur within neural >> nets, especially in hybrids that use both neural nets and systems >that >> have been designed for more discrete (or more discrete-like) kinds of >> reasoning. >> >> If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we >> should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did not >> equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? To say >> that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to actually >express >> consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, needs a lot of >> supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a good theory but if it >> can't pull its own weight then it is just dreaming. >> >> You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. >> >> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a >person >> is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable of strong >> reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and differentiate >> data based on abstract principles. A learning program could then turn >> new learning into abstract principles which could be used to >integrate >> and differentiate new data. But a program that did that would not >have >> to be thinking or learning in a useful way. >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> >wrote: >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA256 >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >>>> Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive >>>> consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). >>> >>> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >>> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >activity. >>> >>>> But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness >>>> be zombie like? >>> >>> It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to >>> spring into action. >>> >>>> You are suggesting that there may be something in between but >>>> which has very limited effects. >>> >>> I'm not sure what you are referring to. >>> >>>> That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts >>>> is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an AI >>>> application without awaking it? >>> >>> well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure >and >>> connections. So if you have access to that information, can be done >>> in an offline setting. >>> >>> It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it >>> could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. >>> >>> Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU resources, >>> but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective nothing is >>> happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how >>>>>>> Tononi defines consciousness. I've studied it very >>>>>>> generally, but not in detail. Intuitively, he seems to have >>>>>>> identified an essential component but by no means >>>>>>> everything.... Obviously our consciousness is saturated in >>>>>>> feedback, but just having a feedback property does not make a >>>>>>> computer conscious. What is a more complete definition under >>>>>>> IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I have seen of IIT >>>>>>> looks interesting. >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is >>>> full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute >>>> to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with >>>> respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal >>>> interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical >>>> observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived >>>> directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. >>>> Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement >>>> for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and >>>> exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions >>>> among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual >>>> occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is >>>> usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be >>>> conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons >>>> may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 >>>> >>>> >>>> Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 >>>> >>>> Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and >>>> Exclusion. >>>> >>>> Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be >>>> interconnected. >>>> >>>> Information implies that there are past memories which can affect >>>> present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect >>>> future actions. >>>> >>>> And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. >>>> >>>> >>>> It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program >>>> switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain >>>> that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after >>>> some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, >>>> they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. >>>> >>>> It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as >>>> passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. >>>> Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I >>>> think there would be some question as to the quality of >>>> consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a >>>> low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local >>>> or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and >>>> would be a singular consciousness. >>>> >>>>>>> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly >>>>>>>> both intelligent and independent. It appears to have >>>>>>>> abilities approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and >>>>>>>> often works at cross purposes to your conscious intentions >>>>>>>> to keep you alive and healthy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic >>>>>>>> possession. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in >>>>>>>> my brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback >>>>>>>> loops exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist >>>>>>>> in the brain, but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have >>>>>>>> but one. For both of those reasons consciousness and neural >>>>>>>> net feedback loops are not one and the same thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of >>>>>>>>> the minimum for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not >>>>>>>>> realize that 'stateless' 'pure functions' could be called >>>>>>>>> 'feed forward'. If global effects were sufficient to >>>>>>>>> induce 'consciousness' then any program with global >>>>>>>>> effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >>>>>>>>> were being more specific than that I still don't think >>>>>>>>> structures that can carry states between calls (in the >>>>>>>>> ways that you were thinking) would be sufficient for >>>>>>>>> conscious behaviors to emerge.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jim Bromer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for >>>>>>>>>> a while but I finally sat down and read the whole >>>>>>>>>> thing yesterday. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are >>>>>>>>>> 'zombies' or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are >>>>>>>>>> conscious due to the feedback loops. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming >>>>>>>>>> structures are 'zombies' and which are conscious. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure >>>>>>>>>> functions are zombies since they simply feed forward. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such >>>>>>>>>> as objects and actors are conscious. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you concur? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and >>>>>>>>>> OpenKeychain. my fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 >>>>>>>>>> f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>>>>> ><https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b >>> 5> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your >>>>>>>>>> Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>>>> ><https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>>>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>>> ><https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>>>>>> >https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> eb0005 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 >>>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >>>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> eb0005 >>>> >>>> >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>> >>> - -- >>> Logan Streondj, >>> A dream of Gaia's future. >>> twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj >>> >>> You can use encrypted email with me, >>> how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ >>> key fingerprint: >>> BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729 >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v2 >>> >>> iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJYpyYXAAoJEIbY/Hz61ycpybQP/0TIz0A3GdVUeaB8JGkE71Dt >>> ssClw3hziJl8ZwXejoaxH+9rZN1NnivTyENv02dTPKqiTuLr17WYkVT7d+ilgcJl >>> sliPWEhGLWzOMptoJ9CH1RI7AxR1/zeqVLHHLgfu799GfUbDUTmVRKjFRjjIbnBy >>> RyK3T6tZVyt6zomokRcPcY+g/sMIqsc0bYnO+F2W6wSlHqZAw5c60hWcMHFG9TbG >>> HBIUrPBLS5Tk4FiD+u1vxujEwc/8uFX/WNkzjF4rnVhtETMSewksIF225Wh0im2l >>> Dt9VYOestnsjxLyv/Q62zcxiBC1GvFjNHWsnrTtlyzKd01U9/4ly2Ey4JHaU1dFJ >>> XbmgMGlEQcgR9JOq6NV/+prxU/Ihnxc4u75XcoDbwQkVz/Y0hw+6EoGpkpOV+V1T >>> 4h5hvjyCNMTNvQee3AZEhoPjAiMDTjMJqvFi5xHzDtip90ZDfQtSlas12bQWr5hZ >>> nd+OPCOJ2WiuFASZe3Xo4fj2a35yFGeQ1dTgThFDepaRRIW0ch1q342J3M4ecDKq >>> SpsfawAL5fW7TsP4GhfU1+dWViQEt0d2VDOOYSIrU5gurtl8qRY1vd66JWXCu1or >>> Rs6ko9cM2yll0tKYO5RyqDBLwnnSKrdXoVGpP6y0T8bSWVqJ6fqZO6AufMNJuEU3 >>> TIUSluT0Tjh/imwXca16 >>> =/ZC7 >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> AGI >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: >https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 >>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > >------------------------------------------- >AGI >Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >RSS Feed: >https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >Modify Your Subscription: >https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
