Dear Kenneth, I'm not claiming that statistics make a proof. They are guides; they show the main lines.... but exceptions exist, of course.
In cases like this one of Ps 22:25 it is good to compare with LXX (do you know Greek?) or with the Latin Vulgate, for instance, in order to verify how ancient translators understood a given text (word, sentence...). This can be often (not always) helpful. Pere Porta (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) 2011/4/12 kenneth greifer <[email protected]> > Pere, > > I am not saying that "enut" can't mean "affliction" in Psalm 22:25. I am > just saying that a word that is used only once might have been misunderstood > and the meaning guessed by people thousands of years ago. I am not sure if > statistics like how many times infinitives are used with lamed in the front > or not should be used as proof because just like a word can occur once, an > infinitive of a verb might be used without a lamed once. If you can accept > the idea that a noun can exist with just one example, then you should > probably be able to accept the possibility that a form of a verb can exist > just once also. I don't consider this to be proof, but it sounds like my > explanation could be a rare use of a word possibly. If you use statistics as > proof, then what happens to the rare things that might also exist? > > Kenneth Greifer > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 05:36:05 +0200 > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22 answering quotes > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > > Kenneth, > > 1. In a general way, Infinitives that come immediately after a verb have > preposition 'l' (lamed) preceding them. > And so, we find 549 cases thereof in the Bible: beginning in Gn 3:24 and > ending in Zec 14:19. > True that we find 96 cases where no preposition lamed precedes the > infinitive. > But the common way is with preposition "lamed". > It is true that verb "shiqets", detest, has no Infinitive following it in > the biblical text. But the usual pattern for "verb + infinitive" is "verb + > l (lamed) + infinitive". > So it is logical that in our verse it will be the same thing. Namely: if it > meant "to answer" we would find "la'anot". > > 2. "enut" is here a feminine noun and NOT a verb. The fact that this noun > is used once in the Bible does not imply that it does not exist (as a noun). > Pattern [two root consonants + ut] for a (feminine) noun is found here and > there in the Bible: > > -"dmut", image, form (Is 40:18) > -"edut", testimony (Ps 60:2) > -"galut", exile (Is 20:4) > > and so, "enut", affliction (Ps 22:25) > > Also we find, to reinforce this, the pattern [three root consonants + > ut] again for feminine nouns: > > -"siklut", stupidity (Ec 10:13) > -"malkut", royalty (1Ch 29:25) > > And today Israeli Hebrew uses this pattern widely: dozens and dozens of > nouns are shaped fitting it. > > Does all this make an answer to your question? > > Kind regards from > > Pere Porta > (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) > > > > 2011/4/11 kenneth greifer <[email protected]> > > Pere, > > Are you sure Psalm 22:25 can't say "You did not hate answering an afflicted > one" instead of "You did not hate *to* answer an afflicted one"? Genesis > 45:3 uses the verb "to be able" yud kaf lamed which might need the word "to" > after it before infinitives. Maybe you don't need "to" before the infinitive > of the verb "to answer." Do you always need "to" in front of infinitives? > > How do you know there is a noun "affliction" spelled ayin nun vav tav if it > is only used once in Psalm 22:25? There is a word spelled ayin nun vav hay > that is translated "humility" in Proverbs 15:33 and Proverbs 18:12. Also, > Psalm 18:36 and 2 Samuel 22:36 have the word translated "humility", but I > think it might say "Your answering (or Your humility) made me great" because > in Psalm 18:4 and 18:7 it says David called on G-d to help him, so maybe G-d > answered him. > > Kenneth Greifer > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:13:21 +0200 > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22 answering quotes > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > > > Kenneth, > > the last word in Ps 22:22 means "You answered me" and not "answer me!". > In Jb 10:9 we have the parallel "asitani", you made me. > In my opinion there is no reason to translate 'anitani' for an Imperative. > Now, in Ps 22:25 'enut" is a noun (affliction) and not a verb (to answer). > The usual way to mean "You did not detest answering an afflicted one" is > using the Infinitive 'la'anot' ------- look at Gn 45:3. > > Heartly, > > Pere Porta > (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) > > 2011/4/10 kenneth greifer <[email protected]> > > > Psalm 22:22 seems to say "...You answered me", but most translations say > "answer me" with the command form. Psalm 22:25 says "You did not hate the > affliction (afflicting?) an afflicted one", but it could say "You did not > hate answering an afflicted one". It sounds like G-d answered the cry of the > person in the from Psalm 22:2-3, but the translations make it sound like he > was not answered. Am I misunderstanding the psalm? > > Kenneth Greifer > > "Real intellectuals can discuss any subject, but pseudo-intellectual snobs > only discuss things they agree with." (I noticed many b-hebrew members have > little sayings under their names, so I came up with this one. I wonder if > that is allowed or do you have to quote someone else?) > _______________________________________________ > b-hebrew mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew > > > > > -- > Pere Porta > > > > > -- > Pere Porta > > -- Pere Porta _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
