The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think these links can help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_the_Sahaba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_Aisha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_Abu_Bakr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_Umar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_Ali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_Fatimah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_view_of_Muawiyah_I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_view_of_the_Qur%27an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Kisa
________________________________ From: Matt Haase <[email protected]> To: Baha'i Studies <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, October 21, 2010 1:34:32 PM Subject: Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot) The Baha'i Studies ListservI think this conversation is interesting. I'm not Sunni or Shi'a, but I think both narratives have merit. On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Susan Maneck <[email protected]> wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >> I would point out that in the history of Sunni-Shia polemics it is >> actually very common for Shias to argue from Sunni sources. >> Rhetorically it can come off as a neat trick > >Dear Gilberto, > >Is it a 'trick' or merely reflective of the fact that the evidence is >on their side? > > > For >> example Ghadeer Khum is in the Sunni hadith collections too and Sunnis >> largely agree with Shias on the outward facts, but with a very >> different understanding. In terms of the current discussion, > >In other words, they agree with the account which clearly demonstrates >that Muhammad appointed Ali as His successor. > > >> In any case, if we are trying to determine the Sunni position on a >> matter you should actually quote positions from Sunni scholars not >> just cherry pick sunni hadith but ignore what Sunni ulema actually >> believe. > > I'm interested in the evidence not the way in which Sunnis attempt to >dismiss it. > > >> Allah have mercy on Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, he abhorred speaking ill >> even of Yazid ibn Mu`awiya because the latter lived in one of the >> centuries praised by our Holy Prophet, > >For the benefit of those Baha'is who are less familiar with Islam, let >me point out that Ibn Hanbal was the founder of the most conservative >school of Sunni Islam, the one the Wahhabis adhere to. > >Now let's deconstruct his statement. He is not going to speak ill >*even* of Yazid (which implies there is a good deal to speak evil of) >because he is the son of Mu'awiya. And what does Mu'awiya have in his >favor? Nothing, except for the fact he lived at the same time as the >Prophet. This apparently means he doesn't have to live up to the same >standards as the rest of us. > > Hence Imam Abu Hanifa made it >> part of the obligatory Muslim Creed in al-Fiqh al-Akbar: "We [Muslims] >> do not mention any of his Companions except with goodness!" Do you >> suppose he meant "whenever it suits us or is easy to do"? > >Okay, thank you very much for this evidence that Sunni Muslims aren't >allowed to do any real historical analysis of this period of their >history. > > >> What is entailed by having good opinion of the Noble Companions of the >> Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) is that if >> they sinned they hastened to repentance; > >Notwithstanding all the evidence to the contrary. > >> There is scholarly consensus, > >So beware folks, Sunni scholars cannot be relied upon when it come so >their early history because they are theologically committed to >ignoring all the negatives. > >Do you even realize the implications of what you are saying? > >warmest, Susan > > >__________________________________________________ >You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] >Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-534370-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu > >Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] >Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >Mail - mailto:[email protected] >Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-534398-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-534450-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
