The Baha'i Studies Listserv Those are the way Americans have been using the terms from the 70s (or even before) till today.
Some prefer the moralistic (social conservatism) vs tolerant (social liberalism) dichomotmy. There also the market (economic/fiscal conservatism) vs social (economic/fiscal liberalism) dichotmy also. So you're saying Susan favors a moralistic social (insert type of govt). I'll go out on a limb and say oligarchy, maybe republic. I'm going with oligarchy for her. I had to guess with the questions on the political dimesion. http://www.friesian.com/quiz.htm ________________________________ From: Gilberto Simpson <[email protected]> To: Baha'i Studies <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 11:24:35 AM Subject: Re: Grave Influence The Baha'i Studies Listserv But isn't the relevant question: what did Susan actually mean when she said: "I would say that we are socially liberal but morally conservative." Instead of reading through half a dozen sites on politics which may or may not use terminology the same way, wouldn't it make more sense to be a little bit charitable and try to understand what Susan said. But if you would like a translation, using your categories below I think said (and in any case I would also say) that Susan's "morally conservative" corresponds to what you describe as "social conservative" and Susan's "socially liberal" corresponds to what you are calling fiscal/economic liberalism. That doesn't mean one set of terms is wrong or another is write. I think there is just a certain amount of arbitrariness and inconsistency when it comes to political labels (they depend alot on context, history, location, which issue is more salient at the time, etc.) On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Stephen Gray <[email protected]> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > No. that's called fiscal liberalism / economic liberalism. > > Look at the Nolan Chart. > > http://freedomkeys.com/nolancharts.htm > > I reccomedn taking several to be sure of positions. Results may vary > depending on questions and terms. > > Note sometime social is interchanged with cultural, persoanl, civic, etc. > and economic with fiscal. > > Social liberalism: > > CLASS 1: A person belonging to the first camp in the cultural sphere > supports cultural freedom. People in this camp believe in the right to have > sex in any position or with any gender you want (assuming it's not rape), > drug legalization, the right to burn the flag, the right to request one's > life ended (suicide or euthanasia) and government non-regulation of things > like prostitution, gambling and pornography. They welcome diversity in > dress, means of expressive speech, language (including foreign languages > being spoken in public), living arrangements, art, and ethnic varieties of > food, recreation and religious ritual. Since they hold the view that > activities that don't hurt anyone (except possibly the people engaging or > requesting the activity themselves) should not be punished by the law, this > means they believe such activity should not be punished regardless of who > does it, and therefore they are strongly in favor of civil rights. Believe > in equality regardless to gender, ethnicity, age, sexual orientation, > religion, disability, nativity, socioeconomic class . . . Characteristic > catchwords: government out of our bedrooms, tolerance, intolerance, > consensual, victimless crime, do your own thing, born free, chains of > society, fascist police state, gestapo. > > > > Social conservatism: > > CLASS 2: The second cultural camp is much more puritanical. People in this > camp call for repression (both through an individual's self-control and > through government enactment and enforcement of laws) of personal urges. A > person with these cultural views will call for said repression in the name > of "tradition", or of "law and order", or perhaps will summon both. Sex > "between consenting adults" is just not good enough if it violates from some > social convention, religious dictum or other moral belief. While people in > the other cultural camp are militant supporters of the equality of > demographic groups, people in this cultural camp will sometimes sacrifice > equality in the name of tradition or other causes, such as believing, > perhaps, that a man should have authority over his wife. They will be much > less likely to condemn racial profiling, and will even often > unapologetically support it if they feel it is in the name of national > security. Youth are viewed not to have the same capacity or deserve the same > rights as adults, and such policies as curfews and a punitive drinking age > are strongly backed. They believe parents should be given maximum power to > enforce rules on their children, as the concept of authority is very > important to them, people in positions of authority never to be disobeyed, > questioned or mocked, even when they are in the wrong. Investment in the > military is crucial and they shudder at the thought of what any cut in > defense, relative to whatever has traditionally been spent for the military > of their country, could do to the security of their nation. They have a > strong emphasis on patriotism and accepting the nation and its laws as they > are; remarks that condemn the country or acts of civil disobedience are > never OK and flag-burning is out of the question. Some idealize a national > homogeneity based on a modern conception of "mainstream" culture > (mainstream-American, or mainstream-Canadian, or mainstream-Australian, or > what-have-you) in standards for lifestyle, while others' views on proper > lifestyle and rites of passage in life come from ethnic tradition. Social > conventions, including restraint of emotions and traditional rules of dating > and roles of the sexes, are very important to them. People and practices > that are eccentric or new to them are seen as not simply "weird", but as > scary, and something to be deeply alarmed by and suspicious about. > Characteristic catchwords: tradition, law and order, chaos, protect people > from their own stupidity, people who know better, honor and duty, these laws > exist for a reason, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. > > > Economic liberalism: > > CLASS 1: People in the first of the two fiscal camps believe in activist > government in the fiscal sphere of life. They dream of a government that > provides money for social security, welfare, and college tuition, as well as > offering free universal health care. Some will even go so far as to make > college free and universal, just as grades K-12 are. Prescription drugs > would be given to seniors for free, and Medicare and Medicaid would be under > the arm of the government. Many also believe in funding for the arts, > although some who are also conservatives in the cultural sphere will oppose > funding certain art if they find it to be pornographic, or may even support > strict legal control over what can be painted or sculpted, so that they will > not have to pay any tax money to a state that will monetarily redeem the > painting of art they object to. People in the first fiscal camp are in favor > of government-funded charities. They do not mind paying and levying higher > taxes for all of this. Down inside, they believe in the power of government > to take on grand projects. They believe that if people worked together with > their government, great things could happen and we could build a better > tomorrow. Characteristic catchwords: compassionate, free and universal, > support, invest in our country's future, cold-hearted, stingy, wants to rob > our children. > > > > Economic conservatism: > > CLASS 2: The other fiscal camp consists of people who oppose more government > in such spending. They oppose social programs, and are readily willing to > cut them or other government projects in the name of lower taxes. They push > for the privatization of social security, and believe that medical plans > would be best served by being privatized and left to businesses (rather than > provided by the government) as well. Those in Europe work hard to have the > high tax rates lowered considerably, and are often "drained" out of the > country in search of lower taxes; and if those in North America, already > calling for a lower tax rate in their own country, moved to Europe, they > would find the tax rates absolutely scandalous and so insane as to warrant a > certification of mental illness on the part of government. Generally, the > more cut from taxes, the better. They are more likely to support a flat tax > than people in the opposite school of thought on fiscal issues. Reasons for > their views on monetarily activist government are varied and some are just > primarily concerned with the rich, but generally all people in the second > camp believe in responsibility. They believe that to be respected as a > mature adult, a person should be able to handle his own financial affairs > and not lean on support for governmental teats. For many it is an opposition > to government interference in anything, anywhere, as a matter of principle. > Some conservatives in the U.S., a nation founded through immigration, > exploration, grueling migrations through wilderness, and rough harnessing > and taming of the landscape, believe strongly that doing your own work and > keeping your own rewards are important traditionally American values. People > from some religious denominations find those values to be an important part > of Christian conduct. Others refuse to give anything to or take anything > from a government they find oppressive. Characteristic catchwords: personal > responsibility, big government, tax-and-spend, welfare state, privatization, > welfare cheats, rugged individualism, hard-working Americans, save you > millions of dollars. > > ________________________________ > From: Gilberto Simpson <[email protected]> > To: Baha'i Studies <[email protected]> > Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 10:16:08 AM > Subject: Re: Grave Influence > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Stephen Gray <[email protected]> wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> Socially liberal, but morally conservative? >> > > I suspect that "socially liberal" means feeling strongly about social > justice or social welfare and being ok with collective and/or > government measures to remedy problems in this area (progressive > taxes, social security, food stamps, etc.) while "morally > conservative" which actions and behaviors are regarded as immoral or > sinful (as you mention, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, alcohol > comsumption.) > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-542420-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [email protected] > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[email protected] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-542439-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [email protected] > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[email protected] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-542460-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [email protected] > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[email protected] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-542472-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-542494-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
