At 16:30 2-12-01 -0500, Tom Beck wrote:

><<I most certainly do not. I do not believe *anyone* should be persecuted and
>killed for their religious beliefs.>>
>
>The people you support do, certainly a large percentage of them.

I support the Palestinian people, I do not support terrorist groups like 
Hamas. I do not believe "a large percentage" of the Palestinians hate Jews. 
Extremists like Hamas tend to make up only a very small (but very loud) 
percentage of the population (as usual with extremists). Since you seem to 
have data I do not have, can you give an accurate estimate of what 
percentage of the Palestinian people believe anyone who does not share 
their beliefs should be persecuted and murdered?


><<Sigh. Not this again. Note that I criticize Israel's politics, not its
>religion. Anti-Semitism means hating Jews; I do not hate Jews (why should
>I?), I disagree with Israel's politics. You might consider that "being
>anti-Israel", but it does not equal anti-Semitism.>>
>
>I think it does.

I think it does not. Example: Christianity is big in the US; when I 
criticize the US government, am I being anti-Christian? Your reasoning 
suggests I am.


>You never have a decent word to say about Israel, not one.

Well, you see, the problem here is that we do not exactly hear many good 
things coming out of that region. Whenever Israel makes headlines over 
here, it is either "Israelis killed by Palestinians" or "Palestinians 
killed by Israelis". I have not heard anything about, say, Israel sending 
relief aid to the refugee camps on the Pakistan/Afghanistan borders. When 
you never *hear* anything good about Israel, it is hard to *say* anything 
good about Israel.


>In your eyes, nothing Israel does is good

See my argument above.


>and nothing its opponents do is bad.

Now, I am pretty sure you are wrong here. I challenge you to find a post in 
the Brin-L Archives in which I support killing innocent civilians. I 
predict that you will fail to find such a post. You will have more luck 
finding a post in which I condemn killing innocent civilians.


>When we try to point out the difference between targeting murderers (as
>Israel does) and targeting civilians (as the Palestinian extremists do) you
>pretend we haven't spoken. From where I'm sitting, that makes you a person
>determined to undermine Israel's right to exist, not just critical of its
>policies.

Time for you to go sit in an other chair, then.   :-)


>In my eyes, that makes you anti-Semitic. You say you don't hate
>Jews, but you sure talk like you do.

I challenge you to find a post in the Brin-L Archives in which I say I hate 
Jews. I predict that you will fail to find such a post. A thorough search 
will reveal that I only criticize Israel's politics, not its religion.


>Maybe you don't want anyone killed, but
>you're not doing a damn thing to stop it from happening.

And what would you suggest I do to stop the killing? Get the launch codes 
for America's nuclear missiles and nuke the entire Middle East? Go to the 
Palestinian Territories and confiscate all the Palestinians' weapons and 
munitions? Take over Israel and declare immediate peace?

What are *you* doing to stop the killing?


>There's criticism and there's hatred. I think you're a lot closer to the
>latter than to the former. You don't have to prove I'm wrong;

Well, since I know myself a lot better than you know me, I *know* you are 
wrong on this; I just do not think you will believe me when I say that.


Jeroen

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