At 11:49 5-12-01 -0600, Dan Minette wrote: >Well, it appears that the Dutch do better than most of their neighbors. For >example, Germans have third generation foreigners in their country who do >not qualify for citizenship because citizenship is a function of ancestry, >not residency. As you said
Care to finish that sentence? > > That terrible distinction you keep making again and again between > Hispanic - not > > Hispanic or black - not black doesn't exist here. Here you are either > good at > > what you do or you are not. You are likable or you are not. That's it. > > That seems to be a concept that is really hard to grasp for you Dan. > >And, it just so happens that the ethnic minorities are all just bad at >things? Lets look at job numbers per ethnic group from: > >http://www.pscw.uva.nl/imes/stats.htm#political > >Ethnic group > Basic Lower Average Higher Scholarly >Turks 28 46 19 6 1 >Moroccans 33 42 19 5 1 >Surinamese 14 36 33 12 4 >Antilleans 12 34 34 14 7 >Dutch 6 27 33 24 9 > >Every indication shows that this is a ethnic breakdown, not a breakdown of >nationalities. One sees that ethnic minorities, for the most part, do the >bottom of the barrel work. While, for brand new immigrants, this is not >surprising, other sources from the Netherlands indicate that problems >continue to exist in the second generation. First off, a breakdown into "Turks, Morrocans, Surinamese, Antilleans, Dutch" *is* a breakdown of nationalities. Now, it is true that people from those groups often do the bottom of the barrel work. Entire studies have been made on that, so I am not going to give all the reasons and solutions here. One of the problems is that many in the second and third generation do not really have their own culture. At school and at work they have to deal with the Dutch culture, while at home they have to deal with their parents' culture. They are kind of "drifting between cultures", which can make life quite difficult for them. Some adjust quite nicely, some do not. The latter often drop out of school, and several turn to crime. Given their lack of education, those who do find work end up doing the low-skill low-pay jobs. We are working on the problem, but it turned out to be quite difficult to reach them. >One way of looking at this is to consider the unemployment rate for young >people (15-25). They would be more likely to be second generation, and less >likely to be able to immigrate without a job, or to have come and then loose >their job. One finds an unemployment rate of 23% for ethnic Turks and 31% >for ethnic Moroccans, and 11% for ethnic Dutch. > >Let me quote from the Dutch report on minorities available at: > >http://www.scp.nl/boeken/cahiers/cah142/uk/persbericht.htm > >The number of young people from minorities in work has increased in recent >years from 27,000 in 1987-1989 to 33,000 in 1993-1995. Nevertheless their >prospects in the labor market are substantially poorer than those of >indigenous young people. Had their employment opportunities been equal, over >60,000 rather than 33,000 would have been in employment in 1993-1995. > >Y'all don't have a problem? Look, we've got a problem too, but we don't put >our heads in the sand. And what makes you think we put our heads in the sand? We are very aware of the problem, and we do everything we can to solve it. It is just not an easy task. >Why do these differences exist. >You are saying > > that America is better because such and such a percentage of another group >than > > white American males is in office. You have no idea how terrible that kind >of > > argument sounds for people used to the amount of tolerance we have in the > > Netherlands. > > > >Lets look at that tolerance. Unfortunately, I do not have figures for the >Netherlands by themselves, but I have European figures. Only about 27% >think that non-Europeans should have the same privileges as Europeans. >More, (about 29%) think they should all be sent home. Only 16% consider >them full members of society. > >It is noted that the Netherlands opinions are more tolerant than average, >but I would be shocked if the Netherlands had 70% that considered these >workers full members of society. What is the source of that information? I note that you quoted sites to back your statements about minorities doing bottom of the barrel jobs, but that you did not quote a site to back this particular claim. And given your reputation for quoting sites, not quoting one is detrimental to the credibility of your claim. > > I wouldn't know. Because in the Netherlands it really doesn't matter. It > > is not important weather your origins are Afro American, Russian, Asian, > > Moroccan, Turkish or whatever. It does however seem to matter a *lot* to > > you that you can _specifically_ mention one Hispanic and one black citizen > > that are successful in office. Now that _does_ show something about > > difference in mentality I'd say. > >Actually, I was talking about Houston, which is the local big city. The >fact that you cannot name a single ethnic minority is indicative to me. I >would have guessed, since ethnic minorities are identifiable, that you could >have gone through a list in your head and come up with a few. This is nonsense, Dan. Sonja did name minorities. You are picking on her because she used nationality instead of ethnicity. If she had used ethnicity you would probably have picked on her for not using nationality. > >Oh and btw since you claimed that Jewish people have to be afraid in the > >Netherlands I think it is your turn now to prove it. Or do you retract? > >I didn't say they had to be, I said they were. That is a fact, I was told >it. Yes, you mentioned that. One person (*one*) told you that. Again, that hardly qualifies as evidence. If you take everything one or a few people say as fact, *everything* is true. The fact that *one* person tells you Jews are afraid to live here does not make it true. Some people over here say that "all those foreigners are a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings" but that does not make it true either. >The fact that over half of the Jewish people remaining went to a place where >a reasonable person would have to conclude that there was a high chance of >death should indicate something about their feeling of safety. Try this one (more plausible than yours, IMO): after the war the state of Israel was finally founded; it is reasonable to assume that *that fact alone* was enough reason to move there. After all, the Jews had to wait for many centuries to get their own country. >The fact that the population in the United States increased over the same >time period should indicate the relative feeling of safety in the US. For the umteenth time: where is the evidence, Dan? You keep saying that much of the Jewish population left Europe because they did not feel safe there, but so far you have failed to provide proof for that claim (other than what one of your friends told you). I could just as well say that it is obvious that the US is a dangerous place for Jews. After all, 80.1% of Israel's population is Jewish, while in the US it is only 2% (source: CIA World Factbook 2001). If Jews have a relative feeling of safety in the US, why have they not moved en masse from Israel to the US? It is a lot safer than living in Israel... >I'm not trying to argue that the Netherlands is some evil place where >non-Europeans are treated like cattle. However, it strains credibility to >think that anti-Semitism that prevailed for at least a thousand years and >which provided the basis for the Holocaust evaporated since WWII. The fact >that the reports y'all read indicating that the Jewish people are mostly at >fault for the strife in the Middle East, that nothing sympathetic to their >plight gets published blows my mind. <snip> >And, as Jerone states, there is nothing good to be said in the local press >about these people? That its all their fault. And, said press are in the >same countries where they were slaughtered. And, I'm crazy to think that >there is lingering prejudice against them? <sigh> Dan, you are putting words in my mouth. I said earlier that what we hear from that region is either "Israeli's killed by Palestinians" or "Palestinians killed by Israeli's". The media here are in the business of reporting facts; nobody is saying that "it is all their fault" as you seem to believe the media say. As for publishing "nothing sympathetic": there is nothing sympathetic about killing each other. Jeroen _________________________________________________________________________ Wonderful World of Brin-L Website: http://go.to/brin-l Tom's Photo Gallery: http://www.tom.vanbaardwijk.com
