Alternately, you could just rent Gangs of New York :)
Dana
>Actually Tim the crime rates for New York for the mid 19th century was
>really horrific. There were also people starving to death in the streets,
>and those dying of TB and other diseases. While its very nice to have such
>a fantasy as most libertarian types have, its simply not realistic. Do you
>really want to go back to that sort of exploitation? Hey given your
>arguments why not bring back slavery?
>
>larry
>
>At 09:56 AM 1/7/2004, you wrote:
>>Those are nations almost entirely without the rule of law. The comparison
>>is ridiculous.
>>
>>Why didn't Irish immigrants rob and kill on the massive levels your talking
>>about? Or any of the large number of displaced former slaves and military
>>personnel after the civil war? Obviously there were individual instance
>>where these things happened, but it was not the norm, nor would it be here.
>>
>>--
>>Timothy Heald
>>Web Portfolio Manager
>>Overseas Security Advisory Council
>>U.S. Department of State
>>571.345.2319
>>
>>The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
>>Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>>opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail is
>>unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:55 AM
>>To: CF-Community
>>Subject: Re: More Breaking News
>>
>>
>>Yes, I am aware of that.
>>
>>I am also aware that people who live in abject poverty will do anything to
>>survive and protect themselves and their families. Public executions don''t
>>stop a family from going hungry.
>>
>>There are entire nations who live by exactly the ideals that you're talking
>>about. These countries are: Somailia, Afganistan, and Sierra Leone to name
>>a few.
>>
>>- Matt Small
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Heald, Tim
>> To: CF-Community
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:42 AM
>> Subject: RE: More Breaking News
>>
>> You do know that their wasn't always welfare and minimum wage in this
>>nation
>> right?
>>
>> I figure that after the first couple of public executions people would
>>stop
>> doing that :)
>>
>> And yes I do actually support the idea of public executions.
>>
>> --
>> Timothy Heald
>> Web Portfolio Manager
>> Overseas Security Advisory Council
>> U.S. Department of State
>> 571.345.2319
>>
>> The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S.
>> Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>> opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail
>>is
>> unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:41 AM
>> To: CF-Community
>> Subject: Re: More Breaking News
>>
>> If there were no minimum wage law and there was no public welfare then you
>> would likely be shot in the street for your wallet and groceries by people
>> needing to eat.
>>
>> You don't antagonize a hungry dog.
>>
>> - Matt Small
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Simon Horwith
>> To: CF-Community
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:24 AM
>> Subject: RE: More Breaking News
>>
>> but the idea behind Minimum wage is that it guarantees a standard of
>> living
>> that, though still at or near poverty level, does help to guarantee
>> certain
>> basic living standards. Even then, the minimum wage tends not to
>>keep-up
>> with the rise in inflation. That said, if a higher inflation rate is
>>the
>> price we must pay in order to guarantee legal workers a chance at a
>>decent
>> life, so be it.
>>
>> ~Simon
>>
>> Simon Horwith
>> CTO, Etrilogy Ltd.
>> Member of Team Macromedia
>> Macromedia Certified Instructor
>> Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer
>> Certified Flash MX Developer
>> CFDJList - List Administrator
>> http://www.how2cf.com/ <http://www.how2cf.com/>
>><http://www.how2cf.com/>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: 07 January 2004 14:02
>> To: CF-Community
>> Subject: RE: More Breaking News
>>
>> I think two main things have led us through inflation and rising
>>costs.
>>
>> 1. Coming off of the gold standard, thanx Nixon.
>>
>> 2. Minimum wage.
>>
>> Why in a free market economy should the government dictate what one
>>side
>> of
>> an open trade should receive? If a person is willing to work for next
>> to
>> nothing, should they not be able to? Also, to return to a place where
>> we
>> can compete in a world economy as not just a service provider, but an
>> industrial base, we need low pay low skill employees. As long as law
>> requires us to meet and exceed basic standards we cannot do so.
>>
>> The only other answer would be to severely penalize countries and
>> companies
>> that don't meet the same requirements that we impose internally.
>>
>> We start by exactly matching tariffs imposed by other nations against
>> our
>> goods. Add additional tariffs to nations that don't afford their
>> employees
>> the same minimum standing of living, add even more for nations that
>> don't
>> have basic human rights.
>>
>> It would be painful, maybe even start a war or two, but I think it
>>would
>> be
>> worth it in the long run.
>>
>> --
>> Timothy Heald
>> Web Portfolio Manager
>> Overseas Security Advisory Council
>> U.S. Department of State
>> 571.345.2319
>>
>> The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
>>U.S.
>> Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have these
>> opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
>> is
>> unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:58 AM
>> To: CF-Community
>> Subject: RE: More Breaking News
>>
>> Hey - I like cutting my own lawn.
>>
>> I'm no economist, bu i wouldn't hold your breath on seeing minimum
>>wage
>> go
>> away. Quite honestly, as far as I know it shouldn't go away. The
>>goal
>> shouldn't be to do away with it so that companies can hire Americans
>>for
>> as
>> cheap as they can get illegal labor, but to legalize all of the labor
>>to
>> the
>> extent that it all falls under minimum wage law. That way there'd be
>>no
>> benefit to hiring an illegal labourer as opposed to a legal one
>>(they'd
>> cost
>> the same). Without minimum wage, what would protect the workforce -
>> especially unskilled and manual labour? Of course, this would most
>> likely
>> result in even more work being outsourced to countries like India...
>>any
>> work that can be, anyway.
>>
>> ~Simon
>>
>> Simon Horwith
>> CTO, Etrilogy Ltd.
>> Member of Team Macromedia
>> Macromedia Certified Instructor
>> Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer
>> Certified Flash MX Developer
>> CFDJList - List Administrator
>> http://www.how2cf.com/ <http://www.how2cf.com/>
>><http://www.how2cf.com/>
>> <http://www.how2cf.com/>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: 07 January 2004 13:36
>> To: CF-Community
>> Subject: RE: More Breaking News
>>
>> >We have 10.5 million illegal workers in the United States right
>>now,"
>> said
>> US Chamber of Commerce President Thomas Donohue.
>>
>> >"If they went home, we'd have to shut down the country."
>>
>> Hehe, or we'd just have to learn how to cut our own lawn again. :)
>>
>> Immigration is probably where I am furthest from libertarian. At
>>this
>> point
>> I am almost isolationist. I would much rather see work-fare
>>programs
>> that
>> get people off the rolls of welfare and into low and no skill jobs.
>> Really
>> if we could do away with the minimum wage and make it so that these
>> companies that hire illegals because they can't afford Americans,
>>can
>> again,
>> it would be good for us all.
>>
>> Also isn't this going to encourage MORE illegal immigration, as
>>people
>> will
>> see the "success stories" of people who got legal recognition. Plus
>> the
>> way
>> many state governments are set up, don't immigrants, even
>> non-citizens,
>> then
>> become eligible for social programs, like welfare and medical
>> benefits?
>>
>> Yeah I can't see how any of this is a good idea.
>>
>> --
>> Timothy Heald
>> Web Portfolio Manager
>> Overseas Security Advisory Council
>> U.S. Department of State
>> 571.345.2319
>>
>> The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
>> U.S.
>> Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have
>>these
>> opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
>> is
>> unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Erika L Walker-Arnold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:27 AM
>> To: CF-Community
>> Subject: More Breaking News
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3375327.stm
>><http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3375327.stm>
>> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3375327.stm>
>> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3375327.stm>
>> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3375327.stm>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Erika
>> _____
>> _____
>> _____
>> _____
>>
>>
>>
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