No inevestigation , no right to speak!(Mao) Do us a favor ...read
"Dialectical & Historical Materialism" Lenin also "Four Essays In
Philosophy" by Mao "The Weapon of Theory" Cabral
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [CrashList] Self Determination- Support It!
> Julien writes:
>
> >Marxists of course subscribe to a
> >kind of crude economic determinism which makes them often see economic
> >things as more important than they are (I'm going to be flamed for this
> >gross
> >oversimplification :-).
>
> Ahh,... just remind your detractors that you were talking "baby talk" to
me,
> in order to get me to understand what seems so obvious to them. Thanks for
> your patience in translating the concepts into gross oversimplifications
so
> that you could share them with me.
>
> It was also written and responded to:
>
> >U.S. activists must keep the
> > >government out of the political affairs of other people. The U. S.
> > >government clearly means no good.
>
> Of course from everyone's standpoint except the US, it seems fairly clear
> that our "government clearly means no good." I would not dispute a large
> amount of our policy being catagorized that way. <--- please note I said
> that, ... please.
>
> However, those who demand the US out and back to our 200 years of
isolation
> must provide SOME intellectual honesty by presenting a more constructive
> pathway that plugs the "vacuum" left by keeping US out of "the political
> affairs of other people." At the moment there is no realistic proposal on
> the table, beyond the vague hope that some socialist, altruistic force
will
> magically appear to solve the problems left over from the legacy of the
20th
> Century,(regardless of who created those problems: US idiots, Global
> Capitalists, butchering second & third-world thugs, somnambulent
> governments, or fanatic fundamentalist zealots) .
>
> I am going to risk a bit of "honesty" here, to see if we can move the list
> forward. I fully expect ONLY flames, namecalling, and some clever ways of
> turning "baby talk", and "naive" back against me, as well as some acerbic
> observations about my non-marxist parentage. Go ahead if you must, I am
> prepared.
>
> From my personal perspective(<--- please note I said "personal" there.)
here
> are some factors that stand in the way of keeping US out of "the political
> affairs of other people.":
>
> 1) It is true enough that I am selfish enough to want to be in control
> rather than trusting someone else to be. I see no more trustworthy persons
> on the horizon, although I am willing to examine the cause of anyone who
is
> willing to step forward and ask for that control. I do NOT see that
> willingness to examine other causes than their own from many other
Crashlist
> members at the moment.
>
> The idea of there being NO ONE in control is too mature for any of us as
> yet. Later ... maybe, after the Crash has demonstrated the folly of my
> position as well as those of others in opposition. (Let us try to remember
> that a certain amount of our attention should be given to the "Crash" in
> crashlist.)
>
> 2)Not ALL US policy is based upon capitalism, or even imperialism. Unless
> this is understood, there is little hope of a realistic understanding of
> alternatives. As bad as many of you hate it, we still tend to act
> occasionally from a sense of morality, as skewed and misapprehended as it
> seems. The most common mistake when looking at US foriegn policy from
> outside is to overlook that factor and attribute darker, capitalistic
> motives everywhere, even where they do not exist, although
> capitalists/imperialists may benefit from those policies.
>
> 3)In the US we no longer trust this "Go away and leave us alone"
> prescription for Europeans dealing with global issues that begin in Europe
> or are so provoked in asia. Simply ... we have been burned too many times
by
> doing so. The lessons we have drawn from the 20th century make us think
> presently that to withdraw from that particular world stage leads to mass
> graves, and it saddens us to keep sending forensic teams in to verify that
> the unmarked graves contain young innocents murdered simply for their
> genetic heritage. (It is allowable to say "Poor naive Americans, what do
we
> care for their sadness?" as long as you realize that our retaliation to
that
> cosmopolitain viewpoint is measured in smart-bombs, regardless of
> justification.) It only reinforces our resolve to hear others deny the
> existence of the graves or attempt to justify them. It does absolutely no
> good to point out either the irrationality or the cognitive dissonance of
> our viewpoint.
>
> Detractors may say this is me simply falling into line with the Zionist
> "Never Again" philosophy, but mine is a more fundamental objection. It is
> simply true on the strategic/tactical levels that SOMEONE will fill the
> vacuum, at at the moment our experience of the last century leads us to
> believe in the haphazard collective security agreements of NATO and the UN
> -- rather than any other alternative or any other SOMEONE. Staying out of
> the "political affairs of other people" means that EVERYONE must do so,
and
> this will never happen. It is our hubris that we think we can do it
better.
> It is YOURS that you ignore that reality must creep into the conduct of
> nations from time to time. ALL OF US ARE AT FAULT THAT WE FIND LITTLE
COMMON
> GROUND TO COOPERATE.
>
> If we wish to examine the crash, understand it, and perhaps move together
to
> mitigate its effects, we must find that commonality here on the list,
don't
> you think?
>
> If any of you simply wish to bash me for being an uneducated
> swallower-of-imperialist-propaganda, that moves the list's discussion not
> one cm in any direction except toward hostility. Better to deal with the
> argument, not the name-calling, please. Return the respect I give others.
>
> However, feel free to flame away. ;-)
>
> Tom
>
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