I think equity is one of the axes to offer PMCs if they wish to improve on it. It would be important then to distinguish between recommendations targeting each of those pillars. That way, PMCs could make the choice if they want to improve equality, equity, equanimity, or whatever. Since we aren’t ordering any PMCs to do anything, I don’t think it hurts to explore the various facets of this space. PMCs can make informed decisions based on the information we provide them.
> On Mar 24, 2025, at 05:22, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > It is indeed quite a lighting rod, and difficult to get clear consensus on. > I think we can have a lot of personal opinions on that and they might be > very nuanced. > > For me - personally, I think that our efforts should be mostly on > equality not equity as an organization (despite my personal actions and > feelings could also be about equity). There are many organizations out > there that have a goal of equity and I personally both cherish and support > them, and it's fine and even great if we manage to get good cooperation > with them (for me Outreachy is a great example of such an organization that > we had past successes with). But I am not sure if Equity should be an ASF > goal on its own. > > I think from the ASF point of view - we should be absolutely open to work > with and cooperate with "Equity-driven" organisations and IMHO reaching the > consensus that this is something we are OK with and that we won't be > "against" working with such organisations and individuals, is what I would > consider as well-balanced and reasonable approach. > > But that's my personal, nuanced opinion only, and I am really interested to > hear what others think here. > > J. > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:47 AM sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 02:13, Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 23, 2025, at 4:38 PM, Craig Russell <apache....@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 20, 2025, at 07:09, Daniel Gruno <humbed...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 3/19/25 23:01, Chris Lambertus wrote: >>>>>>> On Mar 19, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Gruno <humbed...@apache.org> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/19/25 11:28, Ruth Suehle wrote: >>>>>>>> Those of you who have read my board report for today's meeting >> will have >>>>>>>> seen that after a lengthy time of low activity, I'm pleased to >> appoint >>>>>>>> Daniel Gruno to the role of VP, Diversity and Inclusion. He has >> been >>>>>>>> working with Christian Grobmeier (and more recently, Melissa Logan >> has >>>>>>>> joined) on plans to revive the work. I look forward to seeing >> their work >>>>>>>> and encourage anyone who is interested to pitch in! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for that introduction (and trust), Ruth, I appreciate it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's very early days still, but I have written up a short plan or >> primer for how I want to see the EDI committee working, as well as what I'd >> love for us to try out. You can find it here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EDI/2025+EDI+jumpstart+plan >>>>>> A couple initial suggestions: >>>>>> - align the various acronyms (D&I, EDI, DEI) and be consistent. EDI >> seems to be emerging as the preferred standard, but in the IT World of >> Acronyms, Initialisms, and Abbreviations, the disparity between the three >> can be quite confusing >>>>> >>>>> I hear you, and it's made more difficult by the tension that has been >> growing around certain variations (whether you ascribe it to mismanagement >> of initiatives or not). It gets confusing and laden with presuppositions, >> both good and bad ones. >>>>> >>>>> I was thinking of either sticking consistently with EDI as we have >> done, or pivot and call it IDEA (Inclusion, Diversity, Equity, and Access) >> and reframe it in a fully local foundation perspective. What do these >> things mean to us at the ASF and what do we want to accomplish, >> irrespective of the larger trends at hand. >>>> >>>> I was just looking at the United Nations Open Source Principles [1] >> which mentions Diversity and Inclusion and specific to this discussion does >> not talk about Equity. >>>> >>>> I think we should try to stay away from the term Equity, for a few >> reasons. >>>> >>>> It seems to be a political lightning rod that will not help our PR team >>>> It does not seem to be universally understood >>>> It can be seen as reverse discrimination, giving more to folks of >> disadvantaged communities >>> >>> I don’t think we are understanding what equity is about. Equity has a >> lot of definitions like for example common stock traded on various stock >> exchanges is called equity. You absolutely cannot talk about financial >> accounting without talking about equity. >>> >>> We have an overriding concern about vendor neutrality and I’ll ask you >> to explain how this is NOT also a concern about equity. We wish to treat >> all contributors equitably don’t we? >>> >>> (Truthfully I am struggling mightily to be “non-political” right now.) >> >> I think vendor neutrality is about equality, not equity. >> >> https://onlinepublichealth.gwu.edu/resources/equity-vs-equality/ >> >> According to that, equality is about resources and opportunity, >> whereas equity is about ensuring equal outcomes. >> >>> Best, >>> Dave >>> >>>> >>>> For these reasons the VP, Diversity and Inclusion was established >> specifically excluding Equity as an objective. >>>> >>>> I still think we have plenty to do to foster Diversity and Inclusion >> here without getting sidetracked. >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> >>>>> Foster inclusive participation and community building: Enabling and >> facilitating diverse and inclusive contributions [1] >>>> >>>> >>>> [1] The OSI First to Endorse United Nations Open Source Principles | >> Office of Information and Communications Technology >>>> unite.un.org >>>> <favicon.ico> >>>> < >> https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-open-source-principles>The >> OSI First to Endorse United Nations Open Source Principles | Office of >> Information and Communications Technology < >> https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-open-source-principles >>> >>>> unite.un.org < >> https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-open-source-principles> >> <favicon.ico> < >> https://unite.un.org/news/osi-first-endorse-united-nations-open-source-principles >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> - add a section that describes the history, purpose, and goals of >> EDI/DEI/D&I at the ASF. "necessity and benefits" are mentioned as >> components, but it would be good to have an overarching goal or mission >> statement, and metrics/goals for defining "success" or even just "movement >> towards a goal" >>>>> >>>>> Agreed, but in my thinking this needs to come from the communities at >> the ASF and not just me writing a document, so I'd like to work on a >> questionnaire to send out to projects, and get a sense of what matters to >> them. >>>>> >>>>>> -Chris (fluxo) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On April 1st, I intend to do some spring cleaning of the committee >> structure, essentially doing a clean slate. I truly appreciate the work >> that a ton of people have done in (and outside) this committee already, and >> will welcome anyone who wants to stay on the committee. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd also like to invite any other members or committers of the >> foundation to volunteer for the committee, either by replying on this list >> (which is a public mailing list, FYI) or by sending me a private reply with >> your ASF username. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This isn't paid work and you may get yelled at, but if you still >> want to give it a go, maybe we can keep nudging the foundation in a more >> equitable, accessible direction[1], and in turn benefit our users. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have a look at the jump-start plan and let me know what your >> thoughts are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>> Daniel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [1] Don't take this as a jab at our current status. We are awesome, >>>>>>> and we can improve because we want to be...even more awesome. >>>> >>>> Craig L Russell >>>> c...@apache.org >>>> >>> >>
