> Do we have already considered solutions like Nucleo or Streamline, Icons8, > FluentIconsByMicrosoft?
See https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina%29+improvements : "[Option 2:] Find replacement icons in an existing icon font library. Emilian Bold tried this approach and documented it at https://jaxenter.com/netbeans/netbeans-retina . Some manual work is included, but not as much as drawing new icons from scratch. The downside is that (1) quite a few NetBeans icons will have no suitable replacement in an existing font library, (2) icon font libraries yield monochromatic icons only, sacrificing the color of the old icons for an improvement in resolution, and (3) the style of new icons would appear mismatched next to old ones." The approach we have now started (with https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/2387 ) is to start redrawing a subset of NetBeans icons in SVG using the existing bitmap icons as a base--keeping the basic shapes and color scheme with some modernizations, according to the style guide at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2617 . -- Eirik -----Original Message----- From: David Schulz <he...@raiken.de> Sent: Friday, October 9, 2020 5:31 AM To: Christian Lenz <christian.l...@gmx.net>; dev@netbeans.apache.org Subject: RE: Status of converting icons to SVG Thanks for adding me to the discussion @Christian Lenz, and hello into the void! Do we have already considered solutions like Nucleo or Streamline, Icons8, FluentIconsByMicrosoft? We could use one of them as a base layer for new icons. If something isn't included, we could quickly build a new one based on the existing assets and individual needs. All the best, Dave -- uxactly GmbH | raiken.de system design thinking Kurfürstendamm 28 10719 Berlin Tel: 0174 933 85 36 Mail: da...@uxact.ly Skype: rai...@live.de LinkedIn | Xing From: Christian Lenz Sent: Donnerstag, 17. September 2020 13:07 To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; David Schulz Subject: AW: Status of converting icons to SVG I know a good UX and UI guy, it is david who created the logo for us. But yes I don’t think that he will do it for free. But to have a single designer for the Icons and the overall stuff is better than to have 10 designer for the same thing. https://www.raiken.studio/ Cheers Chris Von: Eirik Bakke Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. September 2020 19:16 An: dev@netbeans.apache.org Betreff: RE: Status of converting icons to SVG > I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base > working on source code and repetetive work on graphics. The problem is that if 10 different people are involved in the effort, each redrawing 70 icons (perhaps 40 hours of work), then there will be 10 different icon styles. Ideally there should be a single designer. But no single individual will volunteer to do, say, 300 hours of mostly repetitive work. -- Eirik -----Original Message----- From: Matthias Bläsing <mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 3:02 PM To: dev@netbeans.apache.org Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG Hi, I still fail to see the difference between repetetive work on the code base working on source code and repetetive work on graphics. I worked for a company where the graphics designers were the only ones using mac OS systems. Reasoning was, that their work could only be done on these machines. They were special somehow and I still don't grasp it. At that time other OSes could run their software and other OSes could be color calibrated. I see this again: Now graphics designers need "their" software to work, the one available to all potential contributors is not good enough. Now graphics designers need to be paid, contrary to other contributors. I will pull out of this discussion - I said what I had to say and it would be great if other people say what they think. Greetings Matthias Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 19:19 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke: > Yeah, the crowdfunding approach will only work if there's enthusiastic > support for it. Alternatively, there are benefits to having 4-5 > committers "trained" in the art of making icons for the future. It's > worth going through the crowdfunding discussion once, though. > > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a > > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans? > > Main differences: > * This is a task where, for stylistic and efficiency reasons, ideally > a single person should do the artwork for _all_ the icons. While I'm > sure we have several people here who could do a good job with 20-30 > icons, none of us will have time to do 6-700 of them. > * The task is repetitive and predictable. We can say to the designer, > "Here are 160 bitmap icons that we want SVG versions of. Here are 20 > examples that we have already converted. You get paid when you have > finished the remaining 140 to the same standard. If the project is a > success, we might later try to raise funds to hire you to convert > another 700 icons." > > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't > > scale > On the contrary--I think it's the volunteer effort that won't scale, > due to the sheer number of icons involved. > > > when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is > > not merged? > We could start with a smaller number of icons. If that project is a > success, we can raise more funds for additional icons. > > > Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as the work > > must be ours at the end and the author must not retain rights? > > Here's how I imagine this would work: > 1) One of us would have to organize this. That person sets up a > GoFundMe that says e.g. "Raise $X to hire a graphic designer to > retinafy the first batch of 160 NetBeans icons, to be open sourced > under the Apache License". > 2) Once the funding goal is reached, the organizer goes on UpWork, > recruits a suitable designer, and commissions the work. > 3) Once the designer delivers the work, per UpWork's agreement, the > organizer now holds the rights to it. As bound by the GoFundMe > solicitation, the organizer immediately open sources it under the > Apache License. Now the icons are open source, whether or not they > actually get merged into NetBeans. > 4) At this point, we can hold a vote on whether the icons actually > look good enough to start integrating them into NetBeans. If this vote > passes, we start the regular PR process to move the icons into > NetBeans. If not, then the project is abandoned. > 5) If the project is a success, we can repeat with more icons, using > the same designer. > > > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not > > match? > Then the project has failed, though the icons are still open source. > Since the person getting paid would be a third-party professional, > rather than one of us existing contributors, the transaction would be > "arms length", and no one should feel cheated. > > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to > > fail, just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged. > Yeah, exactly. But the chance of success is higher if the effort is > discussed here first and people actually like the approach. > > -- Eirik > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthias Bläsing <mblaes...@doppel-helix.eu> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:26 PM > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org > Subject: Re: Status of converting icons to SVG > > Hi, > > yes - I know, I'm the bad guy, but in this case: > > What makes graphics design different from programming? Why not do a > crowdfound efford to get feature X in NetBeans? > > With my PMC head on I'm not happy with that approach as it won't scale > - when do we endorce a crowdfund efford, what happens if the work is > not merged? Who will do the contract work, that will be required, as > the work must be ours at the end and the author must not retain > rights? > What happens when the raised money and the work done/merged does not > match? > > So if some outside entity wants to try it ok, but be prepared to fail, > just as a PR is not guaranted to be merged. > > Greetings > > Matthias > > > > Am Dienstag, den 08.09.2020, 17:14 +0000 schrieb Eirik Bakke: > > In my opinion, the ideal way to do this would be to crowdfund the > > effort and have new icons be drawn by a single paid, professional > > icon designer. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. > > > > In my experience, drawing an icon takes 30 minutes on average [1], > > after getting up to speed. Graphic designers on UpWork are perhaps > > $30-60/hour (we'd need to find someone who's qualified for this > > particular job). For an initial effort, there are about 160 icons > > that should be converted [2]. Ideally, we'd find someone to do it > > who could later be called upon to do another 6-700 icons to cover > > most of the remaining interface, if the first project is a success. > > > > As an alternative, for a crowdsourced effort, I'd be happy to do a > > "training" session by Zoom to show contributors how to draw icons in > > Illustrator according to the style guide described in NETBEANS- > > 2617. > > I'm swamped until February 2021, though... > > > > Some issues to consider: > > * Programming and graphic design are two different skillsets. > > Programmers do not always produce tasteful graphic designs. > > * In the long term, we'd want to convert at least several hundred > > icons, maybe thousands [3]. This may be beyond what is possible with > > a volunteer effort. > > * If too many different people work on this, we will get a > > hodgepodge of different icon styles. > > * Normally, cosmetic issues are not very important. But in this > > case, the purpose of the effort is to make NetBeans look good, so > > aesthetics is actually a primary concern. > > * From my own experience, it took about 4 hours of icon-drawing work > > in Illustrator (which I already had some experience with) before I > > was fully "up-to-speed" with designing new icons. If multiple people > > are working on the icons, each person will have to go through this > > learning curve. > > * You often end up copying and pasting shapes between different > > icons. > > If many people are working on the effort, they will end up redrawing > > shapes that others have already drawn. > > * There are lots of little issues that contributors will get wrong > > --e.g. how vertices are aligned to the pixel grid. A lot of > > familiarity with the drawing software is needed. > > * If many people are working on the effort, a single person will > > still end up having to go through all the Illustrator files and > > cleaning them up to a consistent standard, naming scheme etc. For > > the simpler icons (e.g. two rectangles), this takes up as much time > > as drawing the icon itself. > > > > -- Eirik > > [1] See > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/HiDPI+%28Retina > > %2 > > 9+improvements?preview=/110692909/110692926/vectorized.png > > [2] > > https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/prioritized. > > ht ml [3] https://people.csail.mit.edu/ebakke/misc/netbeans-icons/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 4:29 AM > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org > > Subject: Status of converting icons to SVG > > > > Hello everyone, hello Eirik. > > > > It is a while since the [support for SVG icons]( > > https://github.com/apache/ netbeans/commit/ > > 51a01eb9cbfc6f342a1827d47f0b37e1b2f070a3#diff- > > 721be4afbc5aed18d39b11702d02c9fd) > > landed into NetBeans code base. Is it used or is it just laying > > around? > > > > I do remember there was an attempt to start a community supported > > conversion of the icons. What's the status of such conversion? > > Were > > some (at least those visible in the toolbar by default) icons > > converted? > > > > Maybe we should ask guys that have a say in the wider community like > > Jirka Kovalský, Geertjan, etc. to make some buzz around the > > conversion? Have an "icon-a-hack-a-ton"? > > > > Last time I asked for help with reorganizing source files layout per > > cluster, the community reacted quite well. A lot of people > > contributed. Contributing icons shall be even easier and more fun, > > right? > > > > -jt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
