So organize your ideas offline then, when you are ready, publish them. -----Original Message----- From: Michael McGrady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 24, 2004 10:53 AM To: Struts Developers List Subject: Re: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help
I should tell you, Matt, that by the time I am finished with this page, it will probably be ten times as long as it is with the stuff I already have to put in and without covering other peoples' ideas. I am trying to organize this presentation. That, as you notice, will be very difficult to do. Organizing it with others jumping in the middle of it will be harder. I don't really want help in organizing my ideas. I would just like people to stay out of the middle while I am trying to organize and present it. Michael Matt Bathje wrote: > I'm going to respond to this before I respond to your longer reply, as > it is easier for me. > > I understand that you are presenting new solutions to an old problem. > But, you also say the the old solution is no good, without giving > detail why. Having them all in one place allows users to > compare/contrast. > > Like I said, you can setup the structure I suggested without > mentioning DispatchAction, and it will allow others to bring it up > without messing with your format. This allows the new ideas and the > old ideas to intermingle, and gives people a free chance to express > their opinions of all of them. > > A new page could be put together at the same level as "Struts Catalog > Five Multiple Button Solutions" to explain other ways of solving the > problem...it just makes more sense to me to have the problem and all > possible/known solutions defined in one place. > > I guess my question back to you would be - why limit the page to the 5 > solutions you have chosen? Why *can't* the older solutions (even if > you don't like them) be put onto the page. Well the current answer to > that is how you have formatted the page. > > A different format to the page = old and new solutions intermingled by > collaboration. > > Matt > > > > Michael McGrady wrote: > >> Maybe I should add, Matt, that all the solutions I add on this page >> are new solutions. The other solutions that people are trying to put >> into this page have been in public for two years and more. If there >> is not a place to present these new ideas without having to cover the >> old ones, then don't you think that will systematically stiffle new >> ideas? I don't want to write a manual as if I were working at $soft. >> >> Michael McGrady >> >> Matt Bathje wrote: >> >>> Maybe I shouldn't step in the middle of this...but I'm (stupidly?) >>> going to. >>> >>> As both of you have agreed, (and is in fact the case) a Wiki is >>> about the sharing of ideas and collaboration. >>> >>> The problem as I see it is that you have the page set up in a manner >>> that cannot be changed or added to easily. By formatting the page in >>> the way you have, it inherently disallows alternate viewpoints. The >>> page is also unwieldy and hard to follow, and was so before Niall >>> made his changes. >>> >>> Might I suggest a major overhaul to the layout of the page, making >>> better use of the wiki format. The suggestions are: >>> >>> Change the name of the link from "Five Multiple Button Solutions" to >>> something like "Multiple Submit Buttons on One Form Solutions". Yes >>> it is longer, but it implies a much better meaning than the current >>> title. It also doesn't limit the page to be about the 5 solutions 1 >>> person has chosen as acceptable. >>> >>> Instead of having all possible solutions on one page with a weird >>> table of contents, use the wiki format. Have >>> "MultipleSubmitButtonsOnOneFormSolutions" be a short page of mostly >>> links to new wiki pages. Each of these pages will contain 1 possible >>> solution. On this new "table of contents" page, put a short >>> description of the solution by its link. >>> >>> Have some introduction to the problem on the "table of contents" >>> page. The one presented currently is not helpful to a struts newbie. >>> >>> Make one of the links mentioned above be all about DispatchAction >>> and its kin. Or don't, perhaps somebody else will...but if you >>> follow a format like I am suggesting, all alternatives can be easily >>> presented without affecting the "look" of the individual solutions. >>> In the comments section of the main page, people can express their >>> views on which is their favorite/most hated solution :) >>> >>> Possibly add a pros/cons section to each solution so you can tell >>> people what is wrong with DispatchAction, and why they might try >>> other solutions. >>> >>> Assuming I explained this well enough, I think it would solve most >>> of the problems we are seeing. >>> >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael McGrady wrote: >>> >>>> The only reference to you, Niall, so far as I remember, was to >>>> credit your work as yours. I did not want my name associated with >>>> those thoughts. I have credited others on the page. I did not >>>> laud you, because you are trying to include ideas I am explicitly >>>> trying to critique and to surpass. >>>> >>>> I don't see any personal attacks on you, nor do I feel antagonistic >>>> in any way towards you. I am not going to get into the personal >>>> attacks thing more than I have. >>>> >>>> I would like to be able to present some ideas coherently. Your >>>> grasp of this particular area on Struts seems to me to be suspect >>>> and you seem to have no sense of the look and feel of this wiki page. >>>> I am very interested in a debate of any kind on these things. But, >>>> you and I will have to separate our ideas on this. Yours are, >>>> simply put, the ones I jettisoned some time ago, so they hardly >>>> will fit in the center of any presentation of what I am thinking. >>>> Why not put up your own page on those solutions instead of trying >>>> to inject them into a page that explicitly is rejecting them? I >>>> simply am trying to keep this space clean as it is a very complex >>>> page. Your efforts just muddy it up in sense and look. We have a >>>> different approach on this and are not likely to see things the >>>> same. That is of no concern to me. But, cleaning up this wiki >>>> after you on a constant basis is too much for me. >>>> >>>> The wiki is certainly for collaborative efforts, but not all on one >>>> page? I also must state that it is clear that we have no >>>> collaboration on this point. You adapt the ImageButtonBean >>>> approach and I used and rejected that. I am presenting a series of >>>> new approaches. >>>> You continue to put the old approach right in the middle of the >>>> wiki. That is not collaboration. We are not going to collaborate >>>> here. We disagree, apparently. That is okay. Part of the wiki is >>>> presenting alternative ideas, I would think. Why won't you let me >>>> do that in peace? >>>> >>>> Is there no place to present alternative solutions to what you >>>> like, without you putting in what you like in those places? That >>>> is the difficulty. >>>> I appreciate all you have done and I appreciate the ImageButtonBean >>>> solution too, although I am certain it is outmoded and vastly >>>> inferior. Like I said, I have no animosity towards you. All I am >>>> is upset at having to clean up the messes. Hopefully this will be >>>> a new day. I don't want to get too huffed up about your changes, >>>> or the wiki will be nuked. >>>> >>>> Michael McGrady >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Niall Pemberton wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK Contact me off list if you wish, however.... >>>>> >>>>> I respected what you requested in the >>>>> "FiveMultipleButtonsSolution" wiki >>>>> page and all I did was add two links which were related to the >>>>> subject - I >>>>> added no opinions, just the links which is what you suggested >>>>> people should >>>>> do. You then added opinions on that page (seems to me you should >>>>> have put >>>>> them on the comments page you set up and asked others to use?) and >>>>> you also >>>>> put references to me all over the page. I was not happy with you >>>>> making >>>>> reference to me so last night I went through removing all those >>>>> references. >>>>> If you hadn't put my name all over that page then the only thing I >>>>> would >>>>> have changed was adding the two links to alternatives. >>>>> >>>>> The whole idea of a wiki is a collaborative effort - but you seem >>>>> to want >>>>> your own personal space which no-one else should touch, maybe if >>>>> thats the >>>>> case then you should go put it on your own blog and just provide a >>>>> link to >>>>> it directly from the wiki. If you do, please though, don't include >>>>> any >>>>> reference to me - just tell people what your opnions are. >>>>> >>>>> I also don't understand why you constantly resort to personal >>>>> attacks on >>>>> me - I haven't done that to you. For example in this message why >>>>> do you say >>>>> "without much knowledge of this area" - whether its true or not, its >>>>> unecessary and rude. >>>>> >>>>> Niall >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McGrady" >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: "Struts Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:16 PM >>>>> Subject: Struts Wiki Etiquette: Niall's Help >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I am trying to make the wiki on multiple buttons readable, >>>>>> despite being >>>>>> detailed and long. I have had to spend quite a bit of time doing >>>>>> that >>>>>> because Niall comes behind me and changes things in ways that >>>>>> effectively confuses the issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would contact him directly on this, but he has asked me to not >>>>>> do that. >>>>>> >>>>>> You added solutions which I was trying to avoid, Niall, to the wiki. >>>>>> Then, in order not to confuse the reader, I added small critiques >>>>>> of the >>>>>> links you provided. Now you have moved the critiques to places >>>>>> where >>>>>> they make no sense and have altered my words similarly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there any sense to this or am I completely captured by Niall's >>>>>> status >>>>>> and incapable of making this wiki remain readable? If there is >>>>>> no way >>>>>> to keep this wiki safe from Niall, I would rather remove it >>>>>> altogether >>>>>> and just provide a link to a place he cannot rearrange at his >>>>>> whim and >>>>>> without much knowledge of this area. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael McGrady >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
