I think we should start a vote. Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place your argument in the initial email. Thanks for bringing this up!
Regards, Norbert On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree with > Norbert & Andor. > Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the > projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers. > > Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking > about: > > > > - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, > > - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc. > > - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull > > request, etc. > > > > Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a > > common pattern across some Hadoop projects: > > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < > > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> > > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > > https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact> > > > > But not on: > > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < > > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> > > > > Regards, > > Andor > > > > > > > > > On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was for > > all > > > developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were used > > for > > > this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move to > > > JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. JIRA > > > discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another > > aspect > > > of this mirroring is for archival purposes. > > > > > > As such the intent is for developers to participate in development > > > discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. > > > > > > Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually > > > interested in project activity? > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought it’s > a > > >> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. > > >> > > >> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in > > >> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all > > >> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every > now > > and > > >> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails and > > >> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with > email > > >> filters. > > >> > > >> *Filters* > > >> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing lists, > > can > > >> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having > > >> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for > > emails: > > >> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be > > delivered > > >> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new > > subscribers. > > >> > > >> *Markmail* > > >> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. Tbh I > > >> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from Gitbox, > > but > > >> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. > > >> > > >> *Existing users* > > >> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the config > of > > >> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward > > >> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will > > happen > > >> to them? > > >> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, > > >> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need to > > >> subscribe from [email protected] if you want to be notified about A and > [email protected] > > >> if you want to be notified about B, etc. > > >> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists, > it > > >> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. > > >> > > >> My 2 cents. > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Andor > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar > <[email protected] > > > > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my email > > ). > > >>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to > > sign-up > > >>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe > > >>> delete/modify some filters. > > >>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing > (not > > >>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested > in > > >> user > > >>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current list. > > >>> > > >>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a > good > > >> idea > > >>> to me. > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <[email protected] > > > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> re: existing users > > >>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they should > see > > >> the > > >>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they > > don't > > >>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. > > >>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do > > >> there. I > > >>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a new > > >> list, > > >>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. > > >>>> > > >>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY > > >> overwhelming > > >>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost > unexpected > > >>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the > > >>>> separation of mailing lists already > > >>>> > > >>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar > > >>>> <[email protected]> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the > > filters > > >>>> and > > >>>>> since forgot about them. > > >>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always > carry > > >> the > > >>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's > email. > > >>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always a > > good > > >>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) > > >>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for the > > new > > >>>>> list. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent stuff > > >>>> (Patrick > > >>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Regards, > > >>>>> Norbert > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < > > [email protected]> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the VOTE > > >>>> thread. > > >>>>>> That belongs here. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may take > a > > >>>> while > > >>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is > > >>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff automatically > > >>>>> anwyay. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < > > [email protected]> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the > > >>>>> notifications > > >>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I want > > instead > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the dev > list > > >>>> only > > >>>>>>> contains "discussions". > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>> Lars > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why change > now? > > >>>>> Also, > > >>>>>> if > > >>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking sites > such > > >>>> as > > >>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Regards, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Patrick > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < > > >>>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> See for example this: > > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for Jira > > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for Github > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < > > >>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if it > > comes > > >>>>>> from > > >>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>> PMC member. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>>> Lars > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar > > >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! > > >>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate > signal > > >>>>>> from > > >>>>>>>>>> noise. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Regards, > > >>>>>>>>>> Andor > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < > > >>>>>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am > > >>>>> overwhelmed > > >>>>>>>> by > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe > again. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira > > >>>>>>>> notifications > > >>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the > > >>>> mailing > > >>>>>> list > > >>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now for > > >>>>>>>> example is > > >>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all Jira > > >>>>>>>> messages > > >>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just fine. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>>>>> Lars > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > > > >
