Alright, I will do so, thank you On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think we should start a vote. > > Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place your > argument in the initial email. > Thanks for bringing this up! > > Regards, > Norbert > > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree > with > > Norbert & Andor. > > Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the > > projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers. > > > > Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking > > about: > > > > > > - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, > > > - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc. > > > - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull > > > request, etc. > > > > > > Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a > > > common pattern across some Hadoop projects: > > > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < > > > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> > > > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > > > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > > > https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact> > > > > > > But not on: > > > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > > > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > > > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < > > > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> > > > > > > Regards, > > > Andor > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was > for > > > all > > > > developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were > used > > > for > > > > this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move > to > > > > JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. > JIRA > > > > discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another > > > aspect > > > > of this mirroring is for archival purposes. > > > > > > > > As such the intent is for developers to participate in development > > > > discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. > > > > > > > > Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually > > > > interested in project activity? > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought > it’s > > a > > > >> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. > > > >> > > > >> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in > > > >> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all > > > >> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every > > now > > > and > > > >> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails > and > > > >> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with > > email > > > >> filters. > > > >> > > > >> *Filters* > > > >> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing > lists, > > > can > > > >> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having > > > >> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for > > > emails: > > > >> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be > > > delivered > > > >> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new > > > subscribers. > > > >> > > > >> *Markmail* > > > >> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. > Tbh I > > > >> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from > Gitbox, > > > but > > > >> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. > > > >> > > > >> *Existing users* > > > >> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the config > > of > > > >> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward > > > >> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will > > > happen > > > >> to them? > > > >> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, > > > >> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need to > > > >> subscribe from [email protected] if you want to be notified about A and > > [email protected] > > > >> if you want to be notified about B, etc. > > > >> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists, > > it > > > >> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. > > > >> > > > >> My 2 cents. > > > >> > > > >> Regards, > > > >> Andor > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar > > <[email protected] > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my > email > > > ). > > > >>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to > > > sign-up > > > >>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe > > > >>> delete/modify some filters. > > > >>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing > > (not > > > >>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested > > in > > > >> user > > > >>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current > list. > > > >>> > > > >>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a > > good > > > >> idea > > > >>> to me. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke < > [email protected] > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> re: existing users > > > >>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they should > > see > > > >> the > > > >>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they > > > don't > > > >>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. > > > >>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do > > > >> there. I > > > >>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a > new > > > >> list, > > > >>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY > > > >> overwhelming > > > >>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost > > unexpected > > > >>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the > > > >>>> separation of mailing lists already > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar > > > >>>> <[email protected]> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the > > > filters > > > >>>> and > > > >>>>> since forgot about them. > > > >>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always > > carry > > > >> the > > > >>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's > > email. > > > >>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always > a > > > good > > > >>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) > > > >>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for > the > > > new > > > >>>>> list. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent > stuff > > > >>>> (Patrick > > > >>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>> Norbert > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < > > > [email protected]> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the > VOTE > > > >>>> thread. > > > >>>>>> That belongs here. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may > take > > a > > > >>>> while > > > >>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is > > > >>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff > automatically > > > >>>>> anwyay. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < > > > [email protected]> > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the > > > >>>>> notifications > > > >>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I want > > > instead > > > >>>>> of > > > >>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the dev > > list > > > >>>> only > > > >>>>>>> contains "discussions". > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Cheers, > > > >>>>>>> Lars > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt < > [email protected]> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why change > > now? > > > >>>>> Also, > > > >>>>>> if > > > >>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking sites > > such > > > >>>> as > > > >>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Patrick > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < > > > >>>> [email protected]> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> See for example this: > > > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for Jira > > > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for > Github > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < > > > >>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if it > > > comes > > > >>>>>> from > > > >>>>>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>> PMC member. > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > >>>>>>>>> Lars > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar > > > >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! > > > >>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate > > signal > > > >>>>>> from > > > >>>>>>>>>> noise. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>>>>>>> Andor > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < > > > >>>>>> [email protected]> > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am > > > >>>>> overwhelmed > > > >>>>>>>> by > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe > > again. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira > > > >>>>>>>> notifications > > > >>>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> a > > > >>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the > > > >>>> mailing > > > >>>>>> list > > > >>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now > for > > > >>>>>>>> example is > > > >>>>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all > Jira > > > >>>>>>>> messages > > > >>>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just fine. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Lars > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >
