To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today: [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected]
The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications. -Flavio > On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <[email protected]> wrote: > > Alright, I will do so, thank you > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think we should start a vote. >> >> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place your >> argument in the initial email. >> Thanks for bringing this up! >> >> Regards, >> Norbert >> >> >> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree >> with >>> Norbert & Andor. >>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the >>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers. >>> >>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? >>> >>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking >>> about: >>>> >>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, >>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc. >>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull >>>> request, etc. >>>> >>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a >>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects: >>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < >>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> >>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < >>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> >>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact> >>>> >>>> But not on: >>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < >>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> >>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < >>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Andor >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was >> for >>>> all >>>>> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were >> used >>>> for >>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move >> to >>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. >> JIRA >>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another >>>> aspect >>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes. >>>>> >>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development >>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. >>>>> >>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually >>>>> interested in project activity? >>>>> >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought >> it’s >>> a >>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in >>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all >>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every >>> now >>>> and >>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails >> and >>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with >>> email >>>>>> filters. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Filters* >>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing >> lists, >>>> can >>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having >>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for >>>> emails: >>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be >>>> delivered >>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new >>>> subscribers. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Markmail* >>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. >> Tbh I >>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from >> Gitbox, >>>> but >>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Existing users* >>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the config >>> of >>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward >>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will >>>> happen >>>>>> to them? >>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, >>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need to >>>>>> subscribe from [email protected] if you want to be notified about A and >>> [email protected] >>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc. >>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists, >>> it >>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. >>>>>> >>>>>> My 2 cents. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Andor >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar >>> <[email protected] >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my >> email >>>> ). >>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to >>>> sign-up >>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe >>>>>>> delete/modify some filters. >>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing >>> (not >>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested >>> in >>>>>> user >>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current >> list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a >>> good >>>>>> idea >>>>>>> to me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke < >> [email protected] >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> re: existing users >>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they should >>> see >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they >>>> don't >>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. >>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do >>>>>> there. I >>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a >> new >>>>>> list, >>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY >>>>>> overwhelming >>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost >>> unexpected >>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the >>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the >>>> filters >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> since forgot about them. >>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always >>> carry >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's >>> email. >>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always >> a >>>> good >>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) >>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for >> the >>>> new >>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent >> stuff >>>>>>>> (Patrick >>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Norbert >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < >>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the >> VOTE >>>>>>>> thread. >>>>>>>>>> That belongs here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may >> take >>> a >>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff >> automatically >>>>>>>>> anwyay. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < >>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the >>>>>>>>> notifications >>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I want >>>> instead >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the dev >>> list >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions". >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Lars >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt < >> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why change >>> now? >>>>>>>>> Also, >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking sites >>> such >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this: >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for Jira >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for >> Github >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if it >>>> comes >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar >>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate >>> signal >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am >>>>>>>>> overwhelmed >>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe >>> again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira >>>>>>>>>>>> notifications >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the >>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now >> for >>>>>>>>>>>> example is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all >> Jira >>>>>>>>>>>> messages >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>
