Me neither. I'm happy to keep the vote open a bit longer, we're in no rush.
Patrick, do you have anything to add? On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org> wrote: > I’m not sure whether we have convinced Patrick entirely. > Before casting my vote, I’d be happy if we could reach consensus in the > community with this change, not just majority. > > Reason is that I rather feel it a nice-to-have improvement, not critical. > > Andor > > > > > On 2019. May 17., at 17:05, Flavio Junqueira <f...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today: > > > > dev@z.a.o > > commits@z.a.o > > private@z.a.o > > security@z.a.o > > user@z.a.o > > > > The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications. > > > > -Flavio > > > > > >> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <lars.fran...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Alright, I will do so, thank you > >> > >> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar > >> <nkal...@cloudera.com.invalid> wrote: > >> > >>> I think we should start a vote. > >>> > >>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place > your > >>> argument in the initial email. > >>> Thanks for bringing this up! > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Norbert > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree > >>> with > >>>> Norbert & Andor. > >>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in > the > >>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers. > >>>> > >>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking > >>>> about: > >>>>> > >>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, > >>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, > etc. > >>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull > >>>>> request, etc. > >>>>> > >>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is > a > >>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects: > >>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < > >>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> > >>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > >>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > >>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact> > >>>>> > >>>>> But not on: > >>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > >>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > >>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < > >>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Andor > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <ph...@apache.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was > >>> for > >>>>> all > >>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were > >>> used > >>>>> for > >>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move > >>> to > >>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. > >>> JIRA > >>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another > >>>>> aspect > >>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development > >>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually > >>>>>> interested in project activity? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Patrick > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought > >>> it’s > >>>> a > >>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in > >>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all > >>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every > >>>> now > >>>>> and > >>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails > >>> and > >>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with > >>>> email > >>>>>>> filters. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Filters* > >>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing > >>> lists, > >>>>> can > >>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having > >>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for > >>>>> emails: > >>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be > >>>>> delivered > >>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new > >>>>> subscribers. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Markmail* > >>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. > >>> Tbh I > >>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from > >>> Gitbox, > >>>>> but > >>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Existing users* > >>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the > config > >>>> of > >>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward > >>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will > >>>>> happen > >>>>>>> to them? > >>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, > >>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need > to > >>>>>>> subscribe from a...@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and > >>>> b...@zk.org > >>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc. > >>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new > lists, > >>>> it > >>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My 2 cents. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> Andor > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar > >>>> <nkal...@cloudera.com.INVALID > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my > >>> email > >>>>> ). > >>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to > >>>>> sign-up > >>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe > >>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters. > >>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing > >>>> (not > >>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly > interested > >>>> in > >>>>>>> user > >>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current > >>> list. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a > >>>> good > >>>>>>> idea > >>>>>>>> to me. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke < > >>> lars.fran...@gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> re: existing users > >>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they > should > >>>> see > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they > >>>>> don't > >>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. > >>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do > >>>>>>> there. I > >>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a > >>> new > >>>>>>> list, > >>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY > >>>>>>> overwhelming > >>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost > >>>> unexpected > >>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the > >>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar > >>>>>>>>> <nkal...@cloudera.com.invalid> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the > >>>>> filters > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them. > >>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always > >>>> carry > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's > >>>> email. > >>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always > >>> a > >>>>> good > >>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) > >>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for > >>> the > >>>>> new > >>>>>>>>>> list. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent > >>> stuff > >>>>>>>>> (Patrick > >>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>> Norbert > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < > >>>>> lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the > >>> VOTE > >>>>>>>>> thread. > >>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may > >>> take > >>>> a > >>>>>>>>> while > >>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is > >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff > >>> automatically > >>>>>>>>>> anwyay. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < > >>>>> lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the > >>>>>>>>>> notifications > >>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I want > >>>>> instead > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the dev > >>>> list > >>>>>>>>> only > >>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions". > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt < > >>> ph...@apache.org> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why change > >>>> now? > >>>>>>>>>> Also, > >>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking sites > >>>> such > >>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < > >>>>>>>>> lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for > Jira > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for > >>> Github > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if it > >>>>> comes > >>>>>>>>>>> from > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <an...@cloudera.com.invalid> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate > >>>> signal > >>>>>>>>>>> from > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < > >>>>>>>>>>> lars.fran...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am > >>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed > >>>>>>>>>>>>> by > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe > >>>> again. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira > >>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the > >>>>>>>>> mailing > >>>>>>>>>>> list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now > >>> for > >>>>>>>>>>>>> example is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all > >>> Jira > >>>>>>>>>>>>> messages > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just fine. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > >
