Would somebody please update the Mailing Lists page on the website: https://zookeeper.apache.org/lists.html <https://zookeeper.apache.org/lists.html>
Thanks, Andor > On 2019. May 23., at 16:24, Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> wrote: > > Nope. > > Regards, > > Patrick > > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 AM Lars Francke <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Me neither. I'm happy to keep the vote open a bit longer, we're in no rush. >> >> Patrick, do you have anything to add? >> >> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I’m not sure whether we have convinced Patrick entirely. >>> Before casting my vote, I’d be happy if we could reach consensus in the >>> community with this change, not just majority. >>> >>> Reason is that I rather feel it a nice-to-have improvement, not critical. >>> >>> Andor >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 2019. May 17., at 17:05, Flavio Junqueira <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today: >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications. >>>> >>>> -Flavio >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alright, I will do so, thank you >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think we should start a vote. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place >>> your >>>>>> argument in the initial email. >>>>>> Thanks for bringing this up! >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Norbert >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke < >> [email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I >> agree >>>>>> with >>>>>>> Norbert & Andor. >>>>>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in >>> the >>>>>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we >> talking >>>>>>> about: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, >>>>>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, >>> etc. >>>>>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on >> pull >>>>>>>> request, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list >> is >>> a >>>>>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects: >>>>>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < >>>>>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> >>>>>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < >>>>>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But not on: >>>>>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < >>>>>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> >>>>>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < >>>>>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Andor >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was >>>>>> for >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were >>>>>> used >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the >> move >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. >>>>>> JIRA >>>>>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted >> another >>>>>>>> aspect >>>>>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development >>>>>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only >> casually >>>>>>>>> interested in project activity? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought >>>>>> it’s >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in >>>>>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with >> all >>>>>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails >> every >>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing >> with >>>>>>> email >>>>>>>>>> filters. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Filters* >>>>>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing >>>>>> lists, >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think >> having >>>>>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction >> for >>>>>>>> emails: >>>>>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be >>>>>>>> delivered >>>>>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new >>>>>>>> subscribers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Markmail* >>>>>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. >>>>>> Tbh I >>>>>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from >>>>>> Gitbox, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Existing users* >>>>>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the >>> config >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a >> backward >>>>>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What >> will >>>>>>>> happen >>>>>>>>>> to them? >>>>>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, >>>>>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need >>> to >>>>>>>>>> subscribe from [email protected] if you want to be notified about A and >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc. >>>>>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new >>> lists, >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My 2 cents. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> Andor >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar >>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my >>>>>> email >>>>>>>> ). >>>>>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to >>>>>>>> sign-up >>>>>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. >> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters. >>>>>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing >> nothing >>>>>>> (not >>>>>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly >>> interested >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current >>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like >> a >>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>> to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke < >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> re: existing users >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they >>> should >>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if >> they >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. >>>>>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can >> do >>>>>>>>>> there. I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a >>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>> list, >>>>>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY >>>>>>>>>> overwhelming >>>>>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost >>>>>>> unexpected >>>>>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have >> the >>>>>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar >>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created >> the >>>>>>>> filters >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters >> always >>>>>>> carry >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's >>>>>>> email. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is >> always >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) >>>>>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent >>>>>> stuff >>>>>>>>>>>> (Patrick >>>>>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Norbert >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the >>>>>> VOTE >>>>>>>>>>>> thread. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may >>>>>> take >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff >>>>>> automatically >>>>>>>>>>>>> anwyay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the >>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I >> want >>>>>>>> instead >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the >> dev >>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt < >>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why >> change >>>>>>> now? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking >> sites >>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for >>> Jira >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for >>>>>> Github >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if >> it >>>>>>>> comes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate >>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am >>>>>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe >>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the >>>>>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all >>>>>> Jira >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messages >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just >> fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>
