Nope. Regards,
Patrick On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 AM Lars Francke <[email protected]> wrote: > Me neither. I'm happy to keep the vote open a bit longer, we're in no rush. > > Patrick, do you have anything to add? > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I’m not sure whether we have convinced Patrick entirely. > > Before casting my vote, I’d be happy if we could reach consensus in the > > community with this change, not just majority. > > > > Reason is that I rather feel it a nice-to-have improvement, not critical. > > > > Andor > > > > > > > > > On 2019. May 17., at 17:05, Flavio Junqueira <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today: > > > > > > [email protected] > > > [email protected] > > > [email protected] > > > [email protected] > > > [email protected] > > > > > > The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications. > > > > > > -Flavio > > > > > > > > >> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > >> Alright, I will do so, thank you > > >> > > >> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar > > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >>> I think we should start a vote. > > >>> > > >>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place > > your > > >>> argument in the initial email. > > >>> Thanks for bringing this up! > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> Norbert > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke < > [email protected]> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I > agree > > >>> with > > >>>> Norbert & Andor. > > >>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in > > the > > >>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers. > > >>>> > > >>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this? > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we > talking > > >>>> about: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes, > > >>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, > > etc. > > >>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on > pull > > >>>>> request, etc. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list > is > > a > > >>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects: > > >>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html < > > >>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html> > > >>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > > >>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > > >>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact > > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> But not on: > > >>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html < > > >>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html> > > >>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html < > > >>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Regards, > > >>>>> Andor > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was > > >>> for > > >>>>> all > > >>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were > > >>> used > > >>>>> for > > >>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the > move > > >>> to > > >>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. > > >>> JIRA > > >>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted > another > > >>>>> aspect > > >>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development > > >>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only > casually > > >>>>>> interested in project activity? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Patrick > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <[email protected]> > > >>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought > > >>> it’s > > >>>> a > > >>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in > > >>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with > all > > >>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails > every > > >>>> now > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails > > >>> and > > >>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing > with > > >>>> email > > >>>>>>> filters. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> *Filters* > > >>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing > > >>> lists, > > >>>>> can > > >>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think > having > > >>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction > for > > >>>>> emails: > > >>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be > > >>>>> delivered > > >>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new > > >>>>> subscribers. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> *Markmail* > > >>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. > > >>> Tbh I > > >>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from > > >>> Gitbox, > > >>>>> but > > >>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> *Existing users* > > >>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the > > config > > >>>> of > > >>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a > backward > > >>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What > will > > >>>>> happen > > >>>>>>> to them? > > >>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github, > > >>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need > > to > > >>>>>>> subscribe from [email protected] if you want to be notified about A and > > >>>> [email protected] > > >>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc. > > >>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new > > lists, > > >>>> it > > >>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> My 2 cents. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Regards, > > >>>>>>> Andor > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar > > >>>> <[email protected] > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my > > >>> email > > >>>>> ). > > >>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to > > >>>>> sign-up > > >>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. > Maybe > > >>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters. > > >>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing > nothing > > >>>> (not > > >>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly > > interested > > >>>> in > > >>>>>>> user > > >>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current > > >>> list. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like > a > > >>>> good > > >>>>>>> idea > > >>>>>>>> to me. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke < > > >>> [email protected] > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> re: existing users > > >>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they > > should > > >>>> see > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if > they > > >>>>> don't > > >>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost. > > >>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can > do > > >>>>>>> there. I > > >>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a > > >>> new > > >>>>>>> list, > > >>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY > > >>>>>>> overwhelming > > >>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost > > >>>> unexpected > > >>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have > the > > >>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar > > >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created > the > > >>>>> filters > > >>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them. > > >>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters > always > > >>>> carry > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's > > >>>> email. > > >>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is > always > > >>> a > > >>>>> good > > >>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :) > > >>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for > > >>> the > > >>>>> new > > >>>>>>>>>> list. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent > > >>> stuff > > >>>>>>>>> (Patrick > > >>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example). > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Regards, > > >>>>>>>>>> Norbert > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke < > > >>>>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the > > >>> VOTE > > >>>>>>>>> thread. > > >>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may > > >>> take > > >>>> a > > >>>>>>>>> while > > >>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is > > >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff > > >>> automatically > > >>>>>>>>>> anwyay. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke < > > >>>>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the > > >>>>>>>>>> notifications > > >>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I > want > > >>>>> instead > > >>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the > dev > > >>>> list > > >>>>>>>>> only > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions". > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lars > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt < > > >>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why > change > > >>>> now? > > >>>>>>>>>> Also, > > >>>>>>>>>>> if > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking > sites > > >>>> such > > >>>>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke < > > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :) > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915> for > > Jira > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296> for > > >>> Github > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here < > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better if > it > > >>>>> comes > > >>>>>>>>>>> from > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested! > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to separate > > >>>> signal > > >>>>>>>>>>> from > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke < > > >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am > > >>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> by > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe > > >>>> again. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github & jira > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search for on the > > >>>>>>>>> mailing > > >>>>>>>>>>> list > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about it. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training project now > > >>> for > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> example is > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@ and all > > >>> Jira > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> messages > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails to dev@ > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works just > fine. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > > > > > > >
