Iam sorry for my last message, that will be for Vojtěch Dostál only. JS.
On Mon Feb 23 2015 at 11:54:00 Jiří Sedláček <[email protected]> wrote: > Dobrá práce Vojto, na tohle jsem fakt zvědavej! > > On Mon Feb 23 2015 at 11:16:22 Vojtěch Dostál <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> In my opinion, VE will gradually replace the old editor and the new wave >> of editors will learn to edit using VE, not the old Wiki markup system. It >> won't just be a copyediting or "small edit" tool. What we practically need >> to do is have two Trainings for the transition period. The introductory >> parts of the Training module can stay the same - principles of Wikipedia >> community etc. do not change. However, the parts that concern practical >> editing should be offered in both Wikimarkup and VisualEditor. Readers will >> be able to choose the one they like and go through it. >> >> If Samir and WMF want to look into this we will be more than happy. >> Translation of preexisting guide is much easier than doing it from scratch. >> The Hebrew version will be of limited use because nobody in Wikimedia Czech >> Republic speaks Hebrew. Also, I would strongly prefer a version that uses >> the classical Training-based style (it is easier to go through and readers >> are more likely to finish it than a plain PDF). >> >> Ideally, could any of the interested parties state that they intend to >> write a VisualEditor training (in English) of some sort? Same as Pine, we >> do not want to wait ages for it - a two months time seems like a reasonable >> period that we could wait for. If not, we will write it, and hopefully do >> some translations of our texts into English if you are interested. >> On the other hand, English Wikipedia is not very likely to profit from a >> VE training because VE was switched off on English Wikipedia, right? >> >> best regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Vojtěch Dostál >> >> místopředseda / vice-chairman >> Wikimedia Česká republika / Wikimedia Czech Republic >> http://www.wikimedia.cz >> Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/Wikimedia.CR> | Twitter >> <https://twitter.com/Wikimedia_CR> | Newsletter <http://eepurl.com/FsHJr> >> >> >> 2015-02-23 1:05 GMT+01:00 Pine W <[email protected]>: >> >>> Hi Samir, >>> >>> The use of VE may partially depend on the particular wiki involved. >>> Also, we are still waiting on Citoid, which means that we still do >>> references the old fashioned way. We also need to show new users how to >>> create accounts and how to register in Education Extension course pages. So >>> there is definitely room for training new users on Wikipedia mechanics even >>> if they use VE. >>> >>> In addition to the mechanics of editing, new users need to learn >>> community norms with new users so that they know how to select article >>> topics, how to avoid copyvios and BLP violations, what the 5 pillars are, >>> how to meet medical referencing standards where appicable, how to use talk >>> pages, how to use user and user talk pages, when to use the draft namespace >>> and AFC, what sandboxes and infoboxes are, and how to deal with deletion >>> discussions. Some of these norms will vary by wiki. >>> >>> We also need to inspire new users so that editing feels valuable. LiAnna >>> from Wiki Ed has some wonderful slides and ideas about that, so you may >>> want to talk to her about incorporating her ideas into a learning pattern. >>> >>> I would like to be able to cover all of these subjects with new users in >>> one hour. If you can create a lesson plan for this, do please upload an >>> outline and slides to Commons, and create one or more learning patterns. >>> You may want to coordinate the lesson plan development with other people on >>> the WMF education team and in Wiki Ed. There will be a substantial time >>> commitment to do all of this well, so I hope that Floor will agree to >>> support this project with the necessary staff time. >>> >>> I would like to make use of these resources in April if not sooner. >>> >>> Thanks very much for your interest. Please let us know if Floor wants to >>> proceed with this project and when we can expect the finished products. >>> >>> Pine >>> On Feb 22, 2015 3:33 PM, "Samir Elsharbaty" <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> Seems that there is a great interest in having a tutorial for the VE >>>> especially for WEP workshops. However, as a volunteer Wikipedian, I have >>>> always looked at it as a tool that could help with copyediting and fixing >>>> typos after a long editing session for example or that would help a new >>>> user make a quick change without a need to master the editing techniques. I >>>> would have thought like Filip that Visual editor wouldn't need a tutorial. >>>> It's just like social media websites that people work on directly and learn >>>> by practice. Anyway, sorry Filip, seems the majority looks at it >>>> differently. >>>> >>>> Would it be helpful if there is a learning pattern >>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Learning_patterns> on helping >>>> with VE? If yes, would anyone of the VE users be able to volunteer for >>>> creating it? Also, if another more practical detailed option is needed I >>>> would be happy to create a PDF tutorial. It can be uploaded to Commons so >>>> that anyone can print and dispense in the workshops as a handout. >>>> >>>> Do you think any of those two ideas would help? Do you have other ideas >>>> that could be more practical? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:49 AM, Pine W <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am very happy to see such strong interest in VE from the education >>>>> communitty. >>>>> >>>>> FYI, if we don't hear back about a lesson plan for VE training in the >>>>> next few days, either in Hebrew or English, I will contact our colleague >>>>> Michal who is the executive director of WMIL to see if she can provide us >>>>> with at least a Hebrew version that we can use for inspration. >>>>> >>>>> Pine >>>>> On Feb 22, 2015 2:14 PM, "Vojtěch Dostál" <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I also wondered if there is a VE-oriented training somewhere. It >>>>>> seems there isn't - because VE is in a state of flux. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because Czech Republic uses VE to train students we are in a great >>>>>> need of such a training, and are currently asking for a small contract to >>>>>> write a simple wiki-based tutorial, mostly based on Wikipedia:Training >>>>>> module >>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Training/For_students> for >>>>>> students. >>>>>> >>>>>> If there is a Hebrew VE training could someone please link it? It >>>>>> would be lovely to see it, at least to get some inspiration. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Vojtěch Dostál >>>>>> >>>>>> místopředseda / vice-chairman >>>>>> Wikimedia Česká republika / Wikimedia Czech Republic >>>>>> http://www.wikimedia.cz >>>>>> Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/Wikimedia.CR> | Twitter >>>>>> <https://twitter.com/Wikimedia_CR> | Newsletter >>>>>> <http://eepurl.com/FsHJr> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-02-22 14:02 GMT+01:00 Leigh Thelmadatter <[email protected]>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I still do not use VE in my training (despite having 200+ students >>>>>>> working on three campuses) because there are too many things it cannot >>>>>>> do. >>>>>>> I dont have time to constantly play with it to see if it is now good >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to use. I will likely not use it until it is accepted by the wider >>>>>>> community. However, the lack of a viable VE does make scalability very >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> difficult, especially with older teachers who adjust less to idea of >>>>>>> coding >>>>>>> in any form. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 on the frustrations for those with new accounts. I understand the >>>>>>> need for protections with new accounts, but why in the heck does the >>>>>>> captcha "error" message appear at the top and the captcha itself at the >>>>>>> bottom? Students only see the red "error" and I have to tell them to go >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the bottom and its only a captcha. In addition, because we use wireless >>>>>>> with the same IP address, we get errors when I am having a class move >>>>>>> text >>>>>>> into sandboxes or copy/paste finished articles into the mainspace. Most >>>>>>> students cant use the move function as they dont have enough errors. >>>>>>> Even >>>>>>> if they did, using it would render the sandbox worthless because of the >>>>>>> redirect. Add to this trigger-happy bibliotecarios in es.wiki who erase >>>>>>> student work with little or no explanation, the last two times being >>>>>>> wrongly done. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:55:31 +0000 >>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia Education] Editor training with VisualEditor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22 February 2015 at 10:33, Filip Maljković <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is my impression that the VE should be ideally made in such a way >>>>>>> that a tutorial isn't really necessary. But I guess we don't live in an >>>>>>> ideal world :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is the "ideal world according to Silicon Valley", not the world >>>>>>> we inhabit as Wikimedians. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The projects want useful content, and how people write for Wikipedia >>>>>>> matters much more than how they do on Facebook. The world of no >>>>>>> manuals, no >>>>>>> help pages, no support is not one in which we can easily grow our >>>>>>> community >>>>>>> of productive Wikimedians. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And the way the WMF releases software makes life very hard for >>>>>>> trainers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is literally true that you need to check the night before giving >>>>>>> a workshop, with a new account, what the current experience for a >>>>>>> newcomer >>>>>>> to Wikipedia is (capchas, strange messages, moving buttons and all). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe the latest WMUK training leaflet takes the VE as a given. >>>>>>> I know their older leaflet on images mentions it, in a way found >>>>>>> confusing >>>>>>> to a newcomer (as I found - she was a Computer Officer). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Education mailing >>>>>>> list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/education >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Education mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Education mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Education mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Samir Elsharbaty, >>>> Communications Intern, Wikipedia Education Program >>>> Wikimedia Foundation >>>> +2.011.200.696.77 >>>> [email protected] >>>> education.wikimedia.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> EE mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Education mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Education mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education >> >
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