Jsl, 

I'm afraid the issues you mention are only the most obvious... but I have taken 
the bait and so here are some of the rest! (sorry if I've bored you all with 
this before)...

1. The main source of hydrogen currently is from 'cracked' (steam reformed) 
natural gas - i.e. it is effectively a fossil fuel. The efficiency of the steam 
reformation process is approximately 70%. Alternatively, electrolysis can be 
used to make H2 from water - but this uses much more electricity to make H2 
than just using the electricity in EVs directly would.  You also need water - a 
resource that is itself getting scarcer and scarcer.
2.  A typical fuel cell it is only MAX 40% efficient.
3.  To put enough H2 in a package sufficiently practical to put in a car to 
give it 'adequate' range is enormously expensive due to its lack of 
compressibility.  It isn't LPG or propane etc which will compress to liquid 
with a few atmospheres - standard filling pressures are 350 & 700 BAR 
(atmospheres or 4900/9800 PSI!) meaning very strong and therefore big, heavy 
(and VERY expensive) containment vessels.
4.   To store and transport H2 has all the same issues as 3.  For this reason, 
to build a network of equivalent motorway-style refilling stations would 
require HUGE sums of money compared to petrol/diesel (or electric) designs and 
more huge sums of money to service it.
5. Having all that H2 sloshing about everywhere you look would be a recipe for 
colossal disasters on a daily basis.  It would be much more dangerous than 
petrol - hence the reason the only London based H2 refuelling point was shut 
during the Olympics causing all London-based trial H2 powered vehilces to 
either not be used  - or worse (and don't laugh) truck them 50 miles to Swindon 
and back for refuelling!
6. Fuel cells capable of powering a vehicle are very expensive at US$50-100k 
and they have not fallen in price much and probably won't for a very long time.
7. H2 is incredibly dangerous - far more so than petrol or any other common 
flammable gas.  The main reason for this is because it has a very wide 
explosive/ignition mix range with air e.g. *when leaking*.  Also, if it 
ignites, its flame is near invisible.  Consequently, a leak is much more likely 
to lead to an explosion than other fuels.

The list goes on.  Despite all the posts I have made about this on various web 
sites and forums, I have never had a single response saying I'm wrong and why.  
The reverse in fact, I have had several learned individuals tell me I am 
absolutely right!  If so, why is so much money - most of it provided by 
Government - and effort being wasted on fuel cell research?

One of life's little mysteries, I supose.  MW


On 22 Jun 2013, at 11:38, John Lindsay wrote:

> I saw a Ballard fuel cell system this week.
> 
> 5KW in a large cabinet.  Two cells each producing 24 volts about the size of 
> four shoe boxes each. A convertor the size of a two draw filing cabinet that 
> turns methanol mixed with water into hydrogen for the cells.
> 
> It would make an awesome battery charger but it costs around $30K including 
> the two door cabinet.
> 
> Fuel isn't cheap either and the tank costs $250 to fill and lasts 6 or 7 
> hours.
> 
> Don't you hate how economic reality gets in the way of electric dreams?
> 
> Solar keeps getting cheaper because it's silicon based tech.
> 
> Fuel cells are full of platinum and aren't getting cheaper until the 
> electrochemistry uses something else as catalysts. 
> 
> jsl
> 
> On 22/06/2013, at 7:53 PM, Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> Jukka!  Shame on you.  Fuel cells in Teslas (ones that work, are practical 
>> and don't cost twice as much as the rest of the car) are a pipe dream.  If 
>> you haven't already, I suggest you read... 
>> http://planetforlife.com/h2/h2conclude.html ...and the associated pages (the 
>> link is to the conclusion).  It is a bit dated now (2004) but the laws of 
>> physics and chemistry have not changed much, so the conclusion is still 
>> valid.  H2 fuel cells as a replacement for fossil fuelled ICEs (or battery 
>> electric drive trains for that matter) in personal transport vehicles do not 
>> work and probably never will.  For a host of reasons.  Amen.
>> 
>> Regards, MW.
>> 
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