Toyota is as big a business as there is, along side the oil industry. I think they are just getting in bed with their buds.
It is all about the gas station infrastructure - many see it as too ingrained to be avoidable - in that context H2 makes sense as a clean fuel if you don't look too close. There is a lot of money to be made if they are right, and Toyota probably thinks they and the oil companies, et al., can make it right. I think Musk simply questions basic assumptions like this and moves on. Then suddenly before the entrenched know what has hit them, there is a completely new, potentially viable, very different option that cuts them out. Now is when we really start to see sparks fly. On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>wrote: > H2 is (as we all know) a dead end until significant innovations are made > and its energy efficiency remains questionable (read: the fuel is likely > to remain non-competitive) no matter how much the fuel cell gets > innovated. > BTW, FCV is still an electric vehicle. It should be called FCEV. Only > the energy storage is in H2 instead of in batteries, but you need a fuel > cell to get the power out again so instead of just a controller to tap > into the battery power, you need the series of H2 tank - fuel cell - > (often intermediate battery storage for power peaks and for regen > braking) - controller - electric motor. > > So, when (probably not "if") the FCV line fails, just rip out the > clumsy fuel cell setup and H2 tank, pop in a good battery bank and > off you go in your new EV. > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley > via EV > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:59 AM > To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2 > > Without wanting to get into a detailed FCV discussion here, I'm puzzled. > > 1. Last I heard a practical FCV was not possible until some Brand New > Stuff was invented, and no one knew if/how/when that would happen. > 2. Last I heard there was no way to create H2 that was anywhere near as > efficient as just filling a battery with the same energy. > 3. Last I heard FCV fueling infrastructure was wildly more expensive > than > EV fueling infrastructure. > > I'm trying to understand the business case for pursuing FCVs instead of > the > seemingly more promising path of furthering advanced lithium > chemistries. > The only plausible reason to pursue FCVs that I can think of is that > it's > too easy for an upstart manufacturer (like that pesky Tesla) to become > an > EV manufacturer. The fact that FCVs are inherently more complex and > require far more in-house R&D are barriers to entry for new players. > But > even that would require winning the hearts and minds of the driving > public, > and I don't see how the user experience is significantly better. Heck, > I > don't see how you could make an FCV that would gain more market > acceptance > than Toyota's own hybrids. > > I'm trying hard to make sense of this. Where's the return for Toyota? > Is > there something new in FCV development that I missed? > > Chris > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2014/05/toyota-pulling-plug-on-rav4-ev/ > > Toyota Pulling Plug on RAV4-EV > > by Paul A. Eisenstein May 16, 2014 > > > > [image > > > > > http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Toyota-RAV4-E > V-front-3-4.jpg > > Toyota only planned to sell 2,500 RAV4-EVs > > ] > > > > Maker shifting focus from battery-electric to [h2] power. > > > > Toyota is pulling the plug on the RAV4-EV, the battery-electric > version of > > the soft-roader it introduced two years ago with the help of electric > > vehicle start-up Tesla Motors. > > > > This year's phase-out of the RAV4-EV comes as the Japanese giant gets > ready > > to launch its new [h2]-powered FCV, which made its debut at the Tokyo > Motor > > Show last autumn. While it has been the most successful manufacturer > of > > conventional hybrids, Toyota has repeatedly expressed its concerns > about > > pure battery-electric vehicles relying on advanced lithium-ion > batteries. > > > > The move also comes as Tesla gets ready to launch its own, first > > battery-electric SUV, the Model X due to market something in 2015. > > > > "Our contract called for Tesla to supply approximately 2500 > > battery-electric > > powertrains for the RAV4 EV. We anticipate that volume will be > achieved > > this year," noted John Hanson, Toyota's national manager of advanced > > technology communications. > > > > Toyota's Bob Carter showed off the FCV [h2] car concept vehicle at > CES. A > > production model debuts next year. > > > > The decision to end the RAV4-EV project raises questions about the > > relationship between Toyota and Tesla, the Japanese maker serving as a > > strong and early partner for the Silicon Valley-based > battery-carmaker. In > > fact, founder Elon Musk has credited the ties between the two as > having > > helped Tesla get through a tough financial period before it was able > to > > launch production of its first volume electric vehicle, the Model S > sedan. > > > > Toyota has not only invested in Tesla but it sold the smaller maker > its old > > assembly plant in Fremont, California, where the Model S is now > assembled. > > In turn, Tesla provided not only the batteries but the basic > drivetrain for > > the RAV4-EV. > > > > But the end of production of the RAV4-EV doesn't mean that the two > > companies > > have parted ways. > > > > Hanson noted that the Japanese maker has "a good relationship with > Tesla > > and > > will evaluate the feasibility of working together on future projects." > > > > Tesla's Model X, the company's next gen vehicle, also utilizes cameras > > instead of traditional side view mirrors. > > > > What those are, neither carmaker is saying. But Tesla is busy ramping > up > > its > > own production and getting ready to launch not only the Model X but > also a > > smaller, more affordable battery car that is expected to come to > market > > under $50,000, potentially giving the company a more mainstream > audience > > than the Model S, which currently can run as high as $110,000 when > fully > > loaded. > > > > Though Toyota makes it sound like it simply decided to let the RAV4-EV > > program run its natural, limited course, there could be other factors > at > > work. Tesla, for example, has been struggling to get enough batteries > to > > meet projected future demand. Founder and CEO Musk recently unveiled > his > > so-called Gigafactory project, designed to be the world's largest > > lithium-ion battery plant when it gets into production by decade's > end. > > > > As for Toyota, the maker has been openly skeptical about the potential > of > > lithium-ion power, even running a recent ad that focused on the > limitations > > of battery technology. Notably, it has stuck with more time-tested - > if > > less > > powerful - nickel-metal hydride batteries for its familiar hybrid > models, > > such as the segment-leading Prius line. > > > > Meanwhile, Toyota is getting ready to launch into the emerging [h2] > market > > with its first production model, the FCV, introduced in Tokyo last > > November. > > The vehicle uses a fuel-cell stack to provide electric current for a > drive > > system not unlike that in battery cars like the RAV4-EV. But the FCV > will > > get about 200 miles on a tank of [h2] and can be refilled in minutes, > > rather > > than the hours EVs need to recharge. > > > > The big challenge is the lack of a hydrogen refueling infrastructure, > > though > > there are aggressive steps underway to expand the availability of [h2] > > pumps > > in the Southern California region where the FCV will be sold. > > > > Toyota has to hope it gains traction with its [h2] car. Like its > > competitors, it will have to meet California's tough new > Zero-Emissions > > Vehicle, or ZEV, mandate with a minimum number of sales each year. > > > > While Toyota considers the "feasibility" of future ventures with > Tesla, the > > California-based EV maker has established additional ties with Daimler > AG. > > It provided the drivetrain for the first battery version of the Smart > > Fortwo, known as the Electric Drive. And it developed the drivetrain > for > > the > > new Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive just going on sale in the > U.S. > > > > A senior Daimler official told TheDetroitBureau.com last week the > company > > is > > currently evaluating additional product opportunities with Tesla. > > [(c) thedetroitbureau.com] > > ... > > > > > http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Kicks-RAV4-EV-To-The-Curb-After-Onl > y-Two-Years-81350/ > > Toyota Kicks RAV4-EV To The Curb After Only Two Years > > ... > > http://gas2.org/2014/05/15/toyota-rav4-ev-always-placeholder/ > > The Toyota RAV4 EV Was Always A Placeholder > > > > > > > > > > > > For all EVLN posts use: > > > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Na > mlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date > > > > > > > http://www.technologytell.com/in-car-tech/8754/production-begins-nissan- > e-nv200/ > > Production begins for Nissan e-NV200 > > > > > > > http://www.torquenews.com/1080/nissans-andy-palmer-drops-details-new-lea > f-infiniti-ev-plans > > Nissan's Andy Palmer drops details on new LEAF, Infiniti EV plans > > > > > > > https://gigaom.com/2014/05/13/a-japanese-startup-unveils-a-long-lasting- > and-safer-battery-made-from-carbon/ > > A Japanese startup unveils a long-lasting and safer battery made from > > carbon > > > > > > > http://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-zealand-preaches-the-electric-vehi > cle-ways-in-special-bootcamp-81228.html > > New Zealand Preaches the Electric Vehicle Ways in Special Bootcamp > > + > > EVLN: 2014 Nissan Leaf Recall, If Welds Missing, EV Will Be Replaced > > > > > > {brucedp.150m.com} > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Toyota > -Drops-RAV4-EV-gen2-shifting-to-h2-tp4669571.html > > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at > > Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/81cd > d880/attachment.htm> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, "The summer day." To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com <michael.e.r...@gmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/4f2ec40d/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
