> Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels.

Yes, I eat arsenic too (true, apple seeds) but  it is unfair to generalize
and say "I eat arsenic".

In your arguments below, you incorrectly tie the word" energy" to fossil
fuel

> Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider:

Yes, TRUE in the past, but NOT TRUE now and in the future:  and it is the
future that comes from what we do NOW.  .

>1 - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle,
>2 - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your
solar panels)
>3 - energy and materials for roads
>4 - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion.

1) Already Germany is up to 30% soar/wind in just a few years, this is
heading for 100%.  Not 0% as you imply

2) Solar passed break-even in 1980 or so.  The first solar plant to
generate all the electricity it took to produce the panels was in Fredrick
Maryland back then.  British Petroleum bought it in the last decade or so,
to rip-off Maryland Tax payers by taking huge business credits and
writeoffs, and then bulldozed it.

3) will improve over time.

4) EV's generally waste maybe 5% while stalled in traffic compared to a
gas car.  And that 5% mostly came from the sun (for the EV drivers that
charge from solar, More than half and growing).

> All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to
use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive!

Yes, ride a bike or a train or walk.

Bob

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Woodcock via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Robert Bruninga" <bruni...@usna.edu>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 15-Sep-14 8:27:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles> converting buyers to a
higher mpge design (and fossil free)

>
>I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power
>generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as
>much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as
>everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar
>power.
>
>                 -Bill
>
>
>On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>wrote:
>
>>>  ...then no one should be driving at ALL.
>>>  Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or
>>>another.
>>
>>
>>  Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would
>>like us
>>  to believe it).
>>
>>  Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an
>>EV
>>  either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable
>>  providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have
>>that
>>  option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it.
>>
>>  It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also
>>the
>>  motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can.
>>
>>  My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house).
>>We
>>  have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000
>>gallons
>>  equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That
>>last
>>  300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond
>>  routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in
>>just
>>  the last few years (about 50% down this page:)
>>
>>  http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html
>>
>>  And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER
>>than
>>  just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I
>>just
>>  added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and
>>another 3
>>  kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW
>>  (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the
>>  inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a
>>26%
>>  return on investment per year for the rest of my life.... Compare 26%
>>ROI
>>  to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% "ROI" will
>>  actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up.... It makes no
>>sense
>>  not to invest in solar if you have sun!
>>
>>  PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+
>>years
>>  old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house
>>consumes, so
>>  most people would not need more than about a 10kw array.
>>
>>  Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the
>>long
>>  run than doing nothing.
>>
>>  The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities.
>>The
>>  one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your
>>taxes by
>>  30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar!
>>
>>  Bob, Wb4aPR
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
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