Rex, or Brent? (I am mixed up between th (>->>)s and the unmarked text. No
I rather paste my cpmment to the end of this posting, since it pertains to
the last par.-s.
John M

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Rex Allen <> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Brent Meeker <>
> wrote:
> > Rex Allen wrote:
> >> What is your alternative to the "everything" universal acid?  That
> >> things just are the way they are (uniquely), and there's ultimately no
> >> explanation for that.  Right?
> >>
> >
> > Exactly so.  "It's just happened that way" and "Everything happens and
> > so this happens too." are both equally useless.  Progress is only made
> > when we can explain why this rather than that.
> So, we have our observations, and we want to explain them, so we need
> some context to place them in.  So we postulate the existence of an
> external universe.  But then we want to explain what we see in this
> external universe, and the only option is to postulate the existence
> of a multiverse.
> Nothing can be explained in terms of only itself.  To explain it,  you
> have to place it in the context of something larger.  Otherwise, no
> explanation is possible, you just have to say, "this is the way it is
> because that's the way it is."
> Right?
> Basically there's only two way the process can end.  Two possible
> answers to the question of "Why is the universe this way instead of
> some other way?":
> 1) Because things just are the way they are, and there's no further
> explanation possible.
> 2) Because EVERYTHING happens, and so this was inevitable in that
> larger context of "everything".
> What other option is there, do you think?
> >> So we can take our observations of the world around us and construct a
> >> narrative that is consistent with what we see...a narrative that
> >> involves big bangs and electrons.  But what caused the big bang?  Why
> >> do electrons have the particular properties that they have?  If you
> >> propose a particular cause for these things, what caused that cause?
> >>
> >> How is that better than a narrative that allows for "everything"?
> >> They would seem to have equal explanatory power.  Which is to say:
> >> zero.
> > We have much evidence about the big bang and some theories as to how it
> > may have happened which are testable.
> So the existence of a big bang event certainly seems consistent with
> our observations.  But so does the idea of a Boltzmann style
> statistical fluctuation from thermal equilibrium.  Or the idea that
> this is just the dream of the infinitude of relations between numbers.
> We construct narratives that are consistent with our observations, but
> these narratives are about our observations, not about what really
> exists.  You seem to have jumped to some unfounded ontological
> conclusions.
> You can talk about big bangs if that helps you think about your
> observations, helps you identify patterns in what you experience.
> But, that's as far as it can reasonably go, right?
> At the end of the day, we're always right back at where we
> started...with our observations...with our subjective conscious
> experience.
> JM:
I went one little step further and talked about a 'reversed' logic:
Conventional science (as it developed over the millennia) constructed the
'axioms' as the conditions necessary to make the theoreticals VALID.
I did not condone the idea of the Big Bang according to the conventionals
(including the several variants available) and wrote (my) narrative in a
different view (no conventionals).
(For those who have a taste for oddities: Karl Jaspers Forum - TA 62 (MIK)
of 2003. )
Once we enter the conventional figments of (reductionistic) sciences
(ontology) we can only devise variants WITHIN. All, where the formulated
'axioms' help.
And that pertains also to 2 + 2 = 4, where it may be 22 as well. Or: in
Bruno's longer version: (2,(0),) + (2, (0),) = 2020 as well. Bruno, please
excuse if I goofed your formula).
Just in another way of axioms-formulation, while as  II + II  is always
IIII . Axiom or not.


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