On 19 Dec 2010, at 18:29, ronaldheld wrote:

Jason
I would think normally the implant should work as well. Being
Bajorean, could the missing essence be the influence of the Prophets?
Data and the EMH should be able to pass the Turing test.
Maybe I am missing something. A matter human in a matter universe
should function the same as an antimatter human in an antimatter
universe, AFAIK


How do you know that?

Of course it is a consequence of comp + the level is enough high to allow electron to to be substituted by positron, etc. But if comp is false, then you need an explicit hypothesis of invariance for the matter/antimatter change. And from a logical point of view, we can make a comp theory of mind with the matter/antimatter change no more working (using string theory, for example).

Comp, or digital mechanism assumes that there is a substitution level, not that we can know what is that level. Indeed, it can be shown that if we are machine, then we cannot know which machine we are, but can infer it with some degree of plausibility from the observable reality. Saying "yes" to the doctor asks for a leap of faith. Of course we have biological reasons/observations to assume that the level is probably much higher than the internal working of particles and strings.

Bruno









                                            Ronald

On Dec 18, 12:57 pm, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ronald,

I remember that episode.  I thought it was quite a departure from the
atheistic slant that was usual to star trek.
( For those not familiar with the scene:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihdI8U9eS4c#t =2m30s)

They seemed to suggest in the episode that the operation failed not because of a defect in the artificial brain but because there was something more to the mind that the machine didn't capture, some soul or some essence that couldn't be copied. This is contrary to the frequent use of transporters
throughout the series, unless you accept something like biological
naturalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_naturalism), the idea that only biochemistry has the right stuff or can do the right things to create consciousness. I don't think the writers of that episode were well versed in philosophy of mind, so I wouldn't put too much stock in the ideas they promote. For that episode to make sense you either have to accept dualism or biological naturalism (which is almost like a form of dualism).

Do you think that Commander Data, whose entire brain is positronic, lacks consciousness? I like the argument Picard gave for Data's sentience:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNPeNEvMN4

You mentioned that you had no problem with the idea of a person made from anti-matter particles. What if scientists invented tiny machines that were not atoms but operated all the same, would you accept that you could build a person using these? Taking the idea slightly further, lets say these little faux-atoms were expensive, so scientists decided to model the machines in a computer rather than make them. Simulating a small number of them together they could predict how nano-machines behaved. If the scientists modeled a much larger collection of these atoms, organized in the same way as in a
person, do you think any of the complexity is lost?

Jason



On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 8:05 AM, ronaldheld <ronaldh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruno and Jason
The complexity issue concerns me, perhaps because of the Deep space
9 episode:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Life_Support_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine)
                                                            Ronald

On Dec 16, 11:39 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 7:57 AM, ronaldheld <ronaldh...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jason:
I do not think a neutron take more trhan a finite amount of voltage to be able to fire. I do wonder if merely replacing the bio parts by
processing hardware, do you lose the part of the complexity of the
mind? Np problem with an antimatter man and mind.

If the mechanical replacements have the same repertoire and behavior as
the
biological parts I don't see how the complexity would be lessened. Many people feel lessened to be thought of as a machine, but they probably
don't
fully appreciate just how complex of a machine the brain is. It has 100 billion neurons (about 1 for each stars in this galaxy) and close to 1 quintillion connections or 1,000,000,000,000,000 (about 1 connection for every cent of US debt). People aren't familiar with man-made machines anywhere near this level of complexity and so it is understandable that
one
could doubt a machine acting like a human. However, I think this is
mainly a
prejudice instilled by the types of (comparatively simple) machines we
deal
with on a daily basis.

Jason

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