Bruno:
   Behind in this group. I think that if you had a this Universe and
replace the particles with its antiparticles.there should be no
difference from the human observer POV.
 
Ronald

On Dec 20, 4:51 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2010, at 18:29, ronaldheld wrote:
>
> > Jason
> > I would think normally the implant should work as well. Being
> > Bajorean, could the missing essence be the influence of the Prophets?
> > Data and the EMH should be able to pass the Turing test.
> > Maybe I am missing something. A matter human in a matter universe
> > should function the same as an antimatter human in an antimatter
> > universe, AFAIK
>
> How do you know that?
>
> Of course it is a consequence of comp + the level is enough high to  
> allow electron to to be substituted by positron, etc. But if comp is  
> false, then you need an explicit hypothesis of invariance for the  
> matter/antimatter change.
> And from a logical point of view, we can make a comp theory of mind  
> with the matter/antimatter change no more working (using string  
> theory, for example).
>
> Comp, or digital mechanism assumes that there is a substitution level,  
> not that we can know what is that level. Indeed, it can be shown that  
> if we are machine, then we cannot know which machine we are, but can  
> infer it with some degree of plausibility from the observable reality.  
> Saying "yes" to the doctor asks for a leap of faith. Of course we have  
> biological reasons/observations to assume that the level is probably  
> much higher than the internal working of particles and strings.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> >                                             Ronald
>
> > On Dec 18, 12:57 pm, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ronald,
>
> >> I remember that episode.  I thought it was quite a departure from the
> >> atheistic slant that was usual to star trek.
> >> ( For those not familiar with the 
> >> scene:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihdI8U9eS4c#t
> >> =2m30s)
>
> >> They seemed to suggest in the episode that the operation failed not  
> >> because
> >> of a defect in the artificial brain but because there was something  
> >> more to
> >> the mind that the machine didn't capture, some soul or some essence  
> >> that
> >> couldn't be copied.  This is contrary to the frequent use of  
> >> transporters
> >> throughout the series, unless you accept something like biological
> >> naturalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_naturalism),  
> >> the idea
> >> that only biochemistry has the right stuff or can do the right  
> >> things to
> >> create consciousness.  I don't think the writers of that episode  
> >> were well
> >> versed in philosophy of mind, so I wouldn't put too much stock in  
> >> the ideas
> >> they promote.  For that episode to make sense you either have to  
> >> accept
> >> dualism or biological naturalism (which is almost like a form of  
> >> dualism).
>
> >> Do you think that Commander Data, whose entire brain is positronic,  
> >> lacks
> >> consciousness?  I like the argument Picard gave for Data's  
> >> sentience:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNPeNEvMN4
>
> >> You mentioned that you had no problem with the idea of a person  
> >> made from
> >> anti-matter particles.  What if scientists invented tiny machines  
> >> that were
> >> not atoms but operated all the same, would you accept that you  
> >> could build a
> >> person using these?  Taking the idea slightly further, lets say  
> >> these little
> >> faux-atoms were expensive, so scientists decided to model the  
> >> machines in a
> >> computer rather than make them.  Simulating a small number of them  
> >> together
> >> they could predict how  nano-machines behaved.  If the scientists  
> >> modeled a
> >> much larger collection of these atoms, organized in the same way as  
> >> in a
> >> person, do you think any of the complexity is lost?
>
> >> Jason
>
> >> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 8:05 AM, ronaldheld <ronaldh...@gmail.com>  
> >> wrote:
> >>> Bruno and Jason
> >>>   The complexity issue concerns me, perhaps because of the Deep  
> >>> space
> >>> 9 episode:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> >>> Life_Support_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine)
> >>>                                                             Ronald
>
> >>> On Dec 16, 11:39 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 7:57 AM, ronaldheld <ronaldh...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> Jason:
> >>>>>   I do not think a neutron take more trhan a finite amount of  
> >>>>> voltage
> >>>>> to be able to fire. I do wonder if merely replacing the bio  
> >>>>> parts by
> >>>>> processing hardware, do you lose the part of the complexity of the
> >>>>> mind? Np problem with an antimatter man and mind.
>
> >>>> If the mechanical replacements have the same repertoire and  
> >>>> behavior as
> >>> the
> >>>> biological parts I don't see how the complexity would be  
> >>>> lessened.  Many
> >>>> people feel lessened to be thought of as a machine, but they  
> >>>> probably
> >>> don't
> >>>> fully appreciate just how complex of a machine the brain is.  It  
> >>>> has 100
> >>>> billion neurons (about 1 for each stars in this galaxy) and close  
> >>>> to 1
> >>>> quintillion connections or 1,000,000,000,000,000 (about 1  
> >>>> connection for
> >>>> every cent of US debt).  People aren't familiar with man-made  
> >>>> machines
> >>>> anywhere near this level of complexity and so it is  
> >>>> understandable that
> >>> one
> >>>> could doubt a machine acting like a human. However, I think this is
> >>> mainly a
> >>>> prejudice instilled by the types of (comparatively simple)  
> >>>> machines we
> >>> deal
> >>>> with on a daily basis.
>
> >>>> Jason
>
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