On 7/21/2011 1:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

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On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net<mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:On 7/21/2011 11:03 AM, Jason Resch wrote:On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:54 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 7/21/2011 2:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Axiomatics are already in Platonia so of course that forces computation to be there. The computations are concrete relations. If the are concrete then we should be able to point to them. If your mind is a computer, you don't even need to point to them, everything you see and experience is direct evidence of the existence of the computation implementing your mind. Also, I don't think the "point test" works for everything that has a concrete existence. How would a many-worlder point to the other branches of the wave function, or an eternalist point to the past? How would an AI or human in a virtual environment point to the concrete computer that is rendering its environment? They don't need axioms to exist. Then the numbers relation can be described by some axiomatic. And one can regard the numbers as defined by their relations. So the "fundamental ontology" of numbers is reduced to adescription of relations.Is a chair the same thing as a description of a chair, or an idea of a chair? The is no need to suppose they exist in the sense of tables and chairs. Assume both matter and number relations exist. With comp, the existence of number relations explains the existence of matter,That's the question. It seems that comp requires more than the existence of number relations, it requires the existence of a UD or equivalent. The Fibonacci sequence is, 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144...It is defined by the simple number relation Fib(n) = Fib(n-1) +Fib(n-2). This is a simple recursive definition. You might even saythe number line has a simple recursive definition, where Number(n) =Number(n-1) + 1. Different recursive definitions result in differentsequences of numbers (different ways of progressing through theintegers). In some of these definitions, bits patterns (within thenumber) may move around in well defined ways,

`There's the rub. Nothing changes in Platonia. Nothing "moves around"`

`or "computes". Bit patterns are physical things, like 101101. Numbers`

`are not.`

some of these bit patterns become self-reproducing, and may evenevolve into more complex bit patterns, which are better able toreproduce themselves. Some of these bit patterns may even evolveconsciousness, as they build brains which attempt to discern andpredict future observations of bit patterns within the number. Let'scall this function Universe. There may be bit patterns (life forms)in Universe(n) which improve their survival or reproductive success bycorrectly predicting parts of Universe(n+x). There are numberrelations which define such sequences of numbers; you cannot denytheir existence without denying the Fibonacci sequence or the numberline (these are just simpler instances of recursive relations).

`I can deny that the numbers exist the way tables and do and still accept`

`that certain relations are true of them; just like I can accept that`

`John Watson was a friend of Sherlock Holmes.`

Brent

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