On 7/22/2011 10:46 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

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On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Stephen P. King<stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:On 7/22/2011 2:11 AM, Jason Resch wrote:On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: On 7/22/2011 1:24 AM, Jason Resch wrote: All the relevant parts of relativity which imply block time have been confirmed. The above is like arguing against gravity because Newton's theory wasn't compatible with the observations of Mercury's orbit. Hi Jason, Could you be more specific? Exactly which "relevant partswhich imply block time have been confirmed" and how?Special relativity, time dilation due to speed, non simultaneity of events reported by observers in different reference frames, and so on. And to Brent's point, regarding the conflict between relativity and QM, that issue is with GR, SR is not in conflict with QM. This paper explains it well: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2408/ JasonHi Jason, I will check that paper, thanks! But here is the thing about the implications of relativity of simultaneity: Since it prohibits any form of absolute synchronization of events, this in turn restricts how the entire space-time manifold can be considered as parceled up into space-like and time like regions.Imagine that spacetime is a 3 dimensional instead of fourdimensional. Now take any object's velocity through that space time,and consider a plane perpendicular to the direction of that velocity.The content of that plane is considered the "present" for thatreference frame. This is more clear if you consider euclidean spacetime rather than Minkowski space. The only difference you need tomake to convert spacetime to Euclidean is to imagine that everyobject's velocity through space time is c. /Relativity Visualized/ isa good book which explains this view, but this site also explains it:http://www.relativitysimplified.com/ . It enables an intuitiveunderstanding of all the strange effects like time dilation and lengthcontraction. Since we see only the three dimensional "shadow" ofobjects, an object with a different velocity is rotated in spacetime. It is like having an umbrella pointed straight at the sun vs.it being tilted, if it is tilted its shadow becomes compressed alongthe direction it is tilted.In other words, there cannot exist a single Cauchy hypersurface what acts as the set of initial (or final) conditions for a GR field equation for the entire universe.The fact that relativity iplies a unique present for every referenceframe is one of the main arguments for block time. How can the cardriving past you have a present containing different real objects thanyours? Presentism assumes the present is the set of real objects at agiven period of time, but what is real to you now in this moment isdifferent from what is real to me in the same moment if we are movingrelative to each other (even if we are at the same location). See:https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rietdijk%E2%80%93Putnam_argumentThe paper I cited also goes on to counter objections made to thatargument.Thanks, Jason --

Hi Jason,

`None of those papers address the concern of narratability that I am`

`considering. In fact they all assume narratability. I am pointing out`

`that thinking of time as a dimension has a big problem! It only works if`

`all the events in time are pre-specifiable. This also involves strong`

`determinism which is ruled out by QM. See`

`http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/#StaDetPhyThe for a`

`general overview and tph.tuwien.ac.at/~svozil/publ/1994-calude.pdf for a`

`discussion that involves computationalism.`

`The idea that time is a dimension assumes that the events making up`

`the points of the dimension are not only isomorphic to the positive`

`Reals but also somehow can freely borrow the well order of the reals.`

`Please do not think that I am trying to knock Special or General`

`Relativity, they both represent time in terms of local readings of`

`clocks and therefore bypass the question that I am considering. The`

`block universe idea assumes a unique and global ordering of events, the`

`actual math of SR and GR do not!`

`My claim is that the idea that time is a quantity like space only`

`works in the conceptual sense where we are assuming that all events are`

`chained together into continuous world lines. We get this idea from the`

`way that we consider a history of events, much like the layers of strata`

`of stone studied by paleontologist with its embedded fossils. The point`

`is that none of that reasoning follows given the facts that I laid out.`

`It is impossible to define a unique Cauchy hyper-surface of initial`

`(final) data that completely determines all of the world lines in the`

`space-time block in a way that is consistent with QM.`

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=was-einstein-wrong-about-relativity http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/2710/what-does-foliation-mean-in-the-context-of-a-foliation-of-spacetime arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0406024 , http://www.jstor.org/pss/51794 , http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F0eSPWwFThUJ:eom.springer.de/c/c020950.htm+Cauchy+hypersurface+initial+condition+problem&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

`When we add to this difficulty the fact that QM does not allow us`

`to consider all observables as simultaneously definable, because of`

`non-commutativity and non-distributivity of observables; the idea that`

`events are representable as pre-specifiable partly ordered sets from the`

`Big Bang singularity's event horizon into the far distant future falls`

`flat on its face. The point here is that the block universe and its`

`related notions of time assume something that is physically impossible.`

`As a concept it may work just fine and allow us to do all kinds of`

`calculations that seem to bypass or even disallow this problem, but if`

`you look carefully at the assumptions and methods in those calculations`

`you will inevitably find that the solutions involve a splitting of space`

`from time which is a step backwards from Einstein's theories. The Hole`

`Argument is related: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-holearg/`

This is a very subtle and difficult issue that I am considering here. Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.