On 01 Jul 2012, at 19:26, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>> There are incompatible from the "1-pov" ONLY if you assume there
can be only one Bruno Marchal
> "1-pov" means "1-pov" from the 1-pov view.
That's real nice, but the predictions written down in advance were:
1) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary "I Bruno Marchal am now in
Washington and only Washington".
2) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary "I Bruno Marchal am now in
Moscow and only Moscow".
Without making silly assumptions like there can be only one Bruno
Marchal
That is not a silly assumptions. It is a consequence of
computationalism. After the duplication and differentiation, there is
only one Bruno Marchal from the points of view of all Bruno Marchal.
This shows that you don't really make the thought experiment.
show me how these predictions were wrong from ANY perspective you
care to name.
You don't give a prediction. You gave two predictions. You "1) + 2)"
only describe the domain of the 1-indeterminacy.
> There is only one.
Even if there is "only one" I they third party outside observer
agree with you, the "1-pov" from the 1-pov view" about your diary
entry and it's accuracy.
> Even if I am duplicated into 10^100, all of them will have a
unique pov.
If there were 10^100 cities then before the experiment you would
write down 10^100 predictions in your diary and after the
experiment all 10^100 Brunos would read what they had written in
their diary and say "I was right".
So where is this "first person indeterminacy" you keep talking about?
If "1) + 2)" means "1) AND 2)": both will know the prediction was wrong.
If "1) + 2)" means "1) OR 2)": both will agree it was correct, but
that OR was necessarily non constructive, and this confirms the 1-
indeterminacy. Same with "1) + 2) + ... + 10^100)".
>> just look and see what was written in the diary before the
experiment started, it's right there clear as a bell in black and
white. So where is this spectral "first person indeterminacy" you
keep talking about?
> The incompatible experience "I feel to be in M" and "I feel to be
in W". After the experience we can interview the two copies, and
they will confirm it.
Yes, they will confirm that they feel exactly as they predicted they
would feel, and there was nothing incompatible in the prediction.
Only if "+" is interpreted as an "OR", confirming the indeterminacy.
> It helps to understand that from the 1-pov, the experience was not
predictible.
You, Bruno Marchal, are now in Washington and you write in your
diary "I Bruno Marchal am now in Washington and only Washington".
Yes. And I know I am not the one in Moscow. From my first person
perspective, I live a selection, and I have no mean to have predicted
it.
Then you, Bruno Washington, receive a fax from Bruno Moscow and see
that he wrote in his diary "I Bruno Marchal am now in Moscow and
only Moscow". Please show me what was in error in the predictions
from ANY point of view.
Let us write more completely your "1) and 2)" predictions:
1) "I find myself in Washington, and realize that I could not have
predicted that particular outcome, and I guess now that the question
was bearing on that, so I got eventually the 1-indeterminacy point".
2) "I find myself in Moscow, and realize that I could not have
predicted that particular outcome, and I guess now that the question
was bearing on that, so I got eventually the 1-indeterminacy point".
So they both eventually understand that their first person povs was
indeterminate on "1) and 2)", and that the "+" was an OR, as it was
clear at the start for those who take into account the difference
between 1-pov and 3-pov.
I have really no clues why you keep NOT taking that difference into
account. In fact you do, as with the 1)+2), but you keep describing
the 3-view on the 1-views, instead of listening to each reconstituted
person, for whom the "+" can only be interpreted as an OR.
I don't think anyone else but you miss that distinction.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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