On 12 Jul 2012, at 11:34, meekerdb wrote:

On 7/12/2012 1:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 12 Jul 2012, at 00:30, John Mikes wrote:On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:Esse is not percipi. With comp. Esse is more "is a solution to adiophantine polynomial equation".------------------------St.:You have merely replaced the Atoms of the materialists withthe Numbers of neo-Platonists. :_(---------------------------Study UDA and AUDA, it is exactly the contrary. Universalmachines, relatively to the arithmetical truth makes thearithmetical reality into tuburlent unknowns. And matter stillexists but is no more primitive as being the condition makingcollection of universal machines sharing part of the sheaves ofall local computations.UDA is an invitation, or challenge to tell me where you thinkthere is a flaw, for UDA is the point that if we can survive witha digital brain, at some levels, then the physical reality is notthe source of the reason why we believe in a physical reality. Itis a reasoning Stephen, I repeated it recently on the FOAR list,please tell me a number between 0 and 7, or 8, so that we canagree on what we disagree on.My question is (my) usual: how do you describe EXIST?In my view whatever passes the mental royeaume DOES indeed exist.Not the physical world, not the "truth" ideas, ANYTHING. Youescaped my earlier question about the "Nature" (or whateveranybody may call it/her) - this one is attached to it with yourLatin caveat above exposing the questionable 'percipi' what Iindeed included as valid for 'esse'.Percipi might be valid for esse, but esse is not *just* percipi,like in Berkeley statement.With comp, and the UDA conclusion things are rather clear. We haveontological existence, and this is given by the sandard meaning wecan give to existential proposition, like Ex(x is a prime number).the "E" (it exists) is defined by axioms and inference rule.So a number with a given property exists only if it can be proven tohave that property from axioms by the inference rules?

`Not at all. ExP(x) is true if it exists some n such that P(n) is true`

`(provably or not).`

Isn't that restrictive?

That would be.

I thought you extended "exist" to all x for which Ex(Px) whetherprovable or not.

`I have perhaps been unclear. We must not confuse ExP(x), which`

`operational meaning is defined by the axiom and rules of inference`

`(telling us when ExP(x) is believed), but which truth might still be`

`unprovable, and the truth of ExP(x), which is the case when it exists`

`some n such that P(n), and which is supposed to be independent of our`

`ability to prove it or not, and which is actually independent of the`

`axioms we chose.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.