Hi Bruno Marchal 

You have a much more rational view of the mind/brain than I do.
You seem to believe that reason must always be involved, but
IMHO it need not and in faxct rarely is involved. I can walk up
stairs without looking at my feet or thinking "right" or "left" foot".


And when I see a red apple, I see its "redness" without
invoking the word "red".  Or say I hold up shirts of different colors
against me to see how well they look with my complexion or mood. 
I may not even technically know the difference between
off-white and a sort of beige-ish white, Or white-ish beige.
There is a name for it, but it escapes my mind right now.
Maybe it's a light tan ?
 

Roger , rclo...@verizon.net
8/16/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything 
could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-15, 03:30:22
Subject: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model




On 14 Aug 2012, at 16:29, Roger wrote:


Hi John Clark 


1) I can experiencre redness (a qualitative property) while computers cannot,
all they can know are 0s and 1s.


That is not valid. You could say that abrain can know only potential 
differences and spiking neuron.
Of course you confuse level of description. In both case, brain an computer, it 
is a higher level entity which do the thinking.







2) One can use methods such as statistics to infer something in a
practical or logical sense, eg if a bottle of wine has a french label
one can infer that it might well be an excellent wine. A computer could do that.

But one cannot tell other than by tasting it if a wine is truly a good vintage 
or not.
A computer can't do that.


Actually this is already refuted. I read that some program already taste wine 
better than french experts.







And any creative act comes out of the blue if it is truly creative (new).


"new" is relative.




Improved jazs would be a good example of that. I believe that
John Coltrane's solos came out of the Platonic world. 


Google on MUSINUM to see, and perhaps download, a very impressive software 
composing music (melody and rhythm) from the numbers. Numbers love music, I 
would say. Natural numbers can be said to have been discovered in waves and 
music, in great part.


You must not compare humans and present machines, as the first originate from a 
long (deep) computational history, and the second are very recent. Better to 
reason from the (mathematical, abstract) definition of (digital) machine.


Bruno







Roger , rclo...@verizon.net
8/14/2012 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: John Clark 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-12, 13:24:42
Subject: Re: Severe limitations of a computer as a brain model


On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Roger <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:



> Computers are quantitative instruments and so cannot have a self or feelings

Do you have any way of proving that isn't also true of your fellow human 
beings? I don't. 



> intution is non-computable 


Not true. Statistical laws and rules of thumb can be and are incorporated into 
software, and so can induction which is easier to do that deduction, even 
invertebrates can do induction but Euclid would stump them.

John K Clark 






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