Hi Roger,
I answer your many post in one, by pity for the virtual mail boxes.
On 20 Aug 2012, at 11:29, Roger wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
According to the Bible, belief is a product of faith or trust, and
that trust
does not come from you, it is a gift from God.
We have nothing to do with it,
at least that isa what we Lutherns believe.
If it is a gift by God, why a bible?
All religions which believes that religion does not apply to machine
will remain stuck on earth, the others will conquer the physical
universe.
Yes, Hume was complaining about slipping modal logic into an
argument.
OK. Note that this was before Kripke, who found a nice mathematical
semantic for a large class of modal logics, giving them at least
mathematical sense. And that was before it was realized, notably by
Kripke, that incompleteness provides transparent aritthmetical
interpretations of modal logics (Gödel, Löb, Solovay).
There are indeed some similarities between Hume and van Quine. Hume
was an empiricist while van Quine sxeems to me at l,east to have
been a pragmatist.
Bother woirk from the particular to the general. Theory schmeery.
Van Orman Quine pragmatism is not so well clear cut. Comp relates
theology and theo-technology, you can eventually say yes to a doctor
for pragmatic reason.
Anyway. Technically Quine's critics on modal logic is refuted by
incompleteness, even on the first order extension, with the
quantifiers allowed to have variable in the scope of the box. Note
that this is true Peano Arithmetic but not for Zermelo Frankel set
theory. Quantifying in the scope of a set predicate is hard to define.
I spent 33 years at least in the metallurgical laboratory before
retiring,
so in the end, I can't help that while I enjoy and respect theory, and
and am always fascinated by it, in the end I worship data. Pragmatism.
I was born that way.
We makes sense of data through theory and experiences, but not always
consciously. The brain implements many theories learned through
evolution. I don't think we can separate data from theory so easily.
Somehow a brain is by itself already a theory. Our bodies are divine
hypotheses, somehow, assuming comp. We are words in a rational
truncation of a quantum field, to take a low level.
I have no problem with pragmatism, as long as it is not used against
the freedom of any inquiry, nor used as justified invalid reasoning,
or lies and propaganda. Nor used as pretext to cut the funding of
fundamental research, as I can give a pragmatic reasons to fund
fundamental research in all direction.
Pragmatic OK, if honest. That is sometimes difficult with respect to
hard question, like "what's going on?". It is normal that we develop
wishful thinking, and if that works, as already suggested by the Löb
formula( in some very weak and formal sense to be sure), a theory has
to be assumed always in remaining open it can be false.
Sorry, I was again being a bit harsh again. You are a kind person.
Can you give me a link to the sort of output a comp program would
provide ?
Being a natural pragmatist, I learn best from examples.
By definition, all programs are "comp programs", so an example of
output is what happens on your computer's screen right now.
BY comp, I am a program, so another example, is this post.
There is a reason why a machine looking inward become religious.
Hi Bruno and Stephen
I want to inform you that you are wrong in all of your writings.
Please understand how very incorrect you are about everything you
post! Why are you so wrong.
It would help if you could be a little more specific.
Bruno
Roger , [email protected]
8/20/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so
everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-08-19, 08:26:10
Subject: Re: The I Ching, a cominatorically complete hyperlinked
semanticfield(mind).
On 19 Aug 2012, at 11:15, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
> The barrier between religion and ordinary life, like the one that
> suppossedly exist between gods and ordinary life is conventiona. If
> it is true that men have an instinct for religion, this is not
> governed by a switch that is put on when in a temple or when it is
> reading esoteric teachings. It is on all the time and in everyone.
I agree. I make a case that all correct machine are theological. The
reason is that such machine, when looking inward (as they can do by
self-reference) can guess that there is something transcending them.
>
> What produces this need of the soul or this innate instinct of the
> human nature?. It may produce organized relgion, but also politics
> and ideology. The brain areas excited by the appearance of the Pope
> in a group of believers are the same that are excited in ecologists
> when Al Gore appears. In the past there were no separation between
> both phenomena. This is an mostly Occidental division.
But it is also a natural division. When machine get theological, from
their perspective it looks like those kind of things are different.
And at some level they are. I think that the conflict is already
reflected in the left brain / right brain difference. Perhaps between
woman and man, east and west, yin and yang.
Take any machine, she will develop those two poles. the "schizophreny
appears only when one pole believes to be more right than the other
pole.
> The cult of personality in socialist countries and the sectarian
> movements (either political or religious) are new editions of the
> fundamentally Unitarian nature of religion and politics.
>
> So, then, gods and adivines have been and will be here forever.
I concur.
> When a name for them is discredited, they appear with new names and
> within new organization.
Absolutely. Some atheists sects can copy some clergy ritual at the
level of the microcospic details, and also the authoritative
arguments. I am thinking to some atheist masonic lodges (not all).
> The modern Global warming alarmism is an episode of adivination by
> makin illegitimate use of science. the Marxism was a scholastic
> school of Masters of Reality that claimed predicitive powers over
> the story of Humanity. The gigantic photographs of Marx Lenin in the
> URSS parliament is an example of religious temple of Atheism. But
> also the small photograph or a loving one in the dormitory carries
> out a religious sense, Specially if it passed away and it was a
> greath influence in our lives. Religion is everywhere and forever.
OK. But it can progress. The authoritative argument in science and
religion is a rest of our mammals reflex. Dogs and wolves needs
leaders, for reason of a long biological past story. It makes sense
for short term goal, like it makes sense to "obey" to orders in the
military situation. But it is really an handicap for the long run.
And that means that authoritative arguments will disappear, in the
long run, or we will disappear, like the dinosaurs. Natural selection
can select good things for the short terms, and throw them away later.
What will not disappear is science and religion. Religion and
spirituality will be more and more prevalent, and play a role of
private goal, and science will be more and more understood as the best
tool to approximate that spiritual goal. I think.
To fight fundamentalism in religion, theology should go back to the
academy (which like democracy is the worst institution except for all
others!).
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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