On Sat, Aug 25, 2012  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> a cuckoo clock operates the way it does for many reasons.
> > None of them are the reasons of a clock.

Certainly it’s the reasons of a clock. The reason a cuckoo clock runs at
the speed it does is the length of its pendulum, a different clock with a
different pendulum would run at a different speed because there was a
different reason.

> If you must manufacture reasons,

You engage in that manufacturing process for a reason or you do not do so
for a reason.

> The cuckoo clock can't do that. It can't intentionally try something new
> and justify it with a reason later.

You and I are better than cuckoo clocks at justification, at finding the
reason we acted as we did but we are far from perfect in this regard,
sometimes we think we know why we did something but really do not, and
sometimes we don't even have a clue. And think about the debates on this
list, once you've shown that your opponent has the belief he does for no
reason you feel you've won the debate.

> Anything that can be imagined as occuring before something else can be
> called a reason - a butterfly wing flapping can be a reason for a typhoon.

Yes, there are many astronomically complex reasons for a typhoon, so I
guess typhoons have free will.

> There are countless reasons which can influence me

And there are also countless reasons which can influence a cuckoo clock.

> but I can choose in many cases to what extent I identify with that
> influence

And you made that choice for a reason or you made that choice for no
reason, and the clock cuckooed for a reason or it cuckooed for no reason.
And I don't know the reason you find this simple observation confusing, but
I do know you don't understand it for a reason or you don't understand it
for no reason.

> I can defy all of the influences with a creative approach which is not
> random nor predetermined

More of the  X is not Y and X is not not Y crap in a desperate attempt to
prove that what you want to believe is true; and with a axiom like that you
should have no difficulty whatsoever in finding your proof, not that it
will tell you anything about how the world works.

> And free will is every bit as logical as grey. We know that everything is
> either voluntary or involuntary. I wouldn't say that, but you would have to
> agree to that if you are to remain consistent in your position.

Absolutely! If I move from point X to point Y then one of 2 things must be
1) I did so voluntarily: I went from X to Y and I wanted to.
2) I did NOT do so voluntarily: I went from X to Y and I did NOT want to.

> My question was very specific: "Are your opinions on free will robotic or
> random?"

There could be disagreement about that, I have my opinion and you have
yours, but I know one thing for certain, one of those 2 possibilities must
be true. I produce the particular sequence of ASCII characters that I did
after your sequence about the free will noise for a reason or I did so for
no reason. And I remind you that even a robot doesn't feel like a robot
because he's never sure what he's going to do next until he does it.

> All forms of proof are relative to the context in which they are proved.

All proofs depend on the axioms used and axioms are supposed to be simple
and self evidently true, but your basic axiom is "everything is true and
everything is false" and so you can prove or disprove and even prove AND
disprove, anything you like.

> if your views are robotic or random then they are not views, they are
> noise.

If they are random then yes they are noise, but if they are robotic then
they are not, then it is logical and based on truth. And by the way, they
find the word "robot" offensive, I've seen them cry over the epithet, they
ask us not to use the R word and prefer "metallic man".

> The market for eggs is not automatic, nor is it random.

The free market has no difficulty whatsoever determining what the price of
eggs should be.

> despite attempts to beat financial markets using technical analysis
> alone, such attempts repeatedly fail because no formula can account for all
> real world possibilities.

Yes, world economics is much too complicated for a simple formula to
describe its richness, and that's why the free market prove to be superior
to a planned economy like communism, the planners thought they had it all
figured out but in reality they never even came close. And for the same
reason nobody has developed a formula about how air moves inside a
hypersonic jet engine, but nobody thinks its because the engine chooses to
move the air in one way rather than another by using its "free will" in
some vague mystical way.

> It isn't random, nor is it determined by any historical reason except in
> hindsight.

Except? Not knowing a reason and a reason not existing are two very
different things.

> Why would you speak at all?

I am speaking and obviously I am doing so for a reason or I am doing so for
no reason; I think I'm doing so for a reason and you apparently think I am
doing so for no reason, but its clear that one of us must be correct.

> How can you 'make a point'?

I don't understand the question.

> To whom? Other random robotic minds?

My actions can't influence a random mind but it can influence a robotic

>What would the difference be?

The difference would be 42.

> Grey is not black in one sense but not not black in another.

And in that same "sense" you can prove anything you like, and the very next
day you can disprove the same thing. Of course this won't help if your goal
is figuring out how the world works, but if you just want to reinforce
ideas that you find pleasant it works great.

> Can you tell me at what point grey becomes independent of black?

I already told you, 42.

> Everything is true, false, neither true nor false, and both true and
false in some sense.

If you could convince yourself that what you want to be true is true and
what you want to be false is false without resorting to the axiom above,
which is brain dead dumb in every sense, then I'm quite sure you would do
so, but you can't.

 John K Clark

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