On Monday, September 3, 2012 12:22:48 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>>  Hi benjayk 
>> Computers have no intelligence --not a whit,  since intelligence requires 
>> ability to choose, choice requires awareness or Cs, which in term 
>> requires 
>> an aware subject. Thus only living entities can have ingtelligence.
>> A bacterium thus has more intel;ligence than a computer,
>> even the largest in the world.
> Your proof is missing a step: showing why computers cannot have an aware 
> subject
> Another problem is that your assumption that the ability to choose 
> requires consciousness means that deep blue (which chooses optimum chess 
> moves), and Watson (who chose categories and wagers in Jeopardy) are 
> conscious.  I don't dispute that they may be conscious, but if they are 
> that contradicts the objective of your proof.  If you still maintain that 
> they are not conscious, despite their ability to choose, then there must be 
> some error in your argument.

Its circular reasoning to look for proof of consciousness since 
consciousness is a first person experience only, and by definition cannot 
be demonstrated as an exterior phenomenon. You can't prove to me that you 
exist, so why would you be able to prove that anything has or does not have 
an experience, or what that experience might be like.

Instead, we have to go by what we have seen so far, and what we know of the 
differences between computers and living organisms. While the future of 
computation is unknowable, we should agree that thus far:

1) Machines and computers have not demonstrated any initiative to survive 
or evolve independently of our efforts to configure them to imitate that 

2) Our innate prejudices of robotic and mechanical qualities defines not 
merely an unfamiliar quality of life but the embodiment of the antithesis 
of life. I am not saying this means it is a fact, but we should not ignore 
this enduring and universal response which all cultures have had toward the 
introduction of mechanism. The embodiment of these qualities in myth and 
fiction present a picture of materialism and functionalism as evacuated of 
life, soul, authenticity, emotion, caring, etc. Again, it is not in the 
negativity of the stereotype, but the specific nature of the negativity 
(Frankenstein, HAL) or positivity (Silent Running robots, Star Wars Droids) 
which reveals at best a pet-like, diminutive objectified 
pseudo-subjectivity rather than a fully formed bio-equivalence.

3) Computers have not evolved along a path of increasing signs toward 
showing initiative. Deep Blue never shows signs that it wants to go beyond 
Chess. All improvements in computer performance can easily be categorized 
as quantitative rather than qualitative. They have not gotten smarter, we 
have just sped up the stupid until it seems more impressive.

4) Computers are fundamentally different than any living organism. They are 
assembled by external agents rather than produce themselves organically 
through division of a single cell.

None of these points prove that the future of AI won't invalidate them, but 
at the same time, they constitute reasonable grounds for skepticism. To me, 
the preponderance of  evidence we have thus far indicates that any 
assumption of computing devices as they have been executed up to this point 
developing characteristics associated with biological feeling and 
spontaneous sensible initiative is purely religious faith.



> Jason

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