On 12 Sep 2012, at 12:22, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Yes, and Steve Wolfram has come up with a similar idea of building
the universe from very small units in "A New Kind of Science."
http://www.wolframscience.com/
Wolfram is not aware of the first person indeterminacy. The idea that
the universe is digital is incompatible with the computationalist
hypothesis. You might need to study the first person indeterminacy and
its consequence to get this.
See this list, or
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
Wolfram is still doing the physicalist mistake to believe that a
universe can explain consciousness per se. It is more subtle than
that, as no machine can know on which computations she belongs, among
an infinity of one. he uses implicitly, even for the possible
prediction of its digital creature, a supervenience thesis which does
not work with computationalism. I think that he just avoid the mind-
body problem, in the usual Aristotle science. It is not a new kind of
science, it is the old aristotelian metaphysics with some new clothes.
Bruno
Also, the I Ching constructs (taoism) the world combinatorily
from units of yin and yang.
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/12/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-11, 13:20:45
Subject: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:27, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
If I ever doubt that there is a God,
the regularity of Newton's physics or
the microscopic structure of a snowflake
dispels such doubt.
These show design.
Design cannot be made randomly.
So there must be some intelligence interweaved in Nature.
I call that God.
That nature has structure and laws, to me indicates
that there must be some superintelligence at work.
OK. And with comp a case can be made that it is the intelligence
innate to arithmetic.
Look how lawful and rich a very simple program, less than 1K, can
define:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTuP02b_a7Y
It is a succession of different zoom on the Mandelbrot set, which is
basically defined by the set of complex number c such that the
iteration, starting from z = 0, of z_n = (z_n-1)^2 + c don't diverge.
If you can see intelligent design in a snowflake, I can see
intelligent design in the Mandelbrot set, and in the circle too. It
abounds in math and in arithmetic.
Bruno
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/11/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-10, 13:17:52
Subject: Re: The poverty of computers
Roger,
I agree with John here. Except that his point is more agnostic than
atheist.
A better question to John would be: explain where consciousness and
universes come from, or what is your big picture. John is mute on
this, but his stucking on step 3 illustrates that he might be a
religious believer in a material universe, or in physicalism.
Perhaps.
To be clear on atheism, I use modal logic (informally). if Bx means
"I believe in x", and if g means (god exists)
A believer is characterized by Bg
An atheist by B ~g
An agnostic by ~Bg & ~B~g
But you can replace g by m (primitive matter), and be atheist with
respect of matter, etc.
Someone who say that he does not believe in God, usually take for
granted other sort of God, that is they make a science, like
physics, which is irreproachable by itself, into an explanation of
everything, which is just another religion or pseudo religion, if
not assumed clearly.
I advocate that we can do theology as seriously as physics by
making clear the assumptions. Like with comp which appears to be
closer to Bg than to Bm. But g might be itself no more than
arithmetical truth, or even a tiny part of it.
Bruno
On 10 Sep 2012, at 18:27, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you are an atheist, prove that God does not exist. If you
can't, you are a hypocrite in attacking those that do believe that
God exists. You haven't a leg to stand on.
A fool disbelieves only in the things he can prove not to exist,
the wise man also disbelieves in things that are silly. A china
teapot orbiting the planet Uranus is silly, and so is God.
John K Clark
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