Hi Richard Ruquist  

The Psalms are full of doubt and hope for an answer.

Obviously doubt is a component of faith.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/13/2012  
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him  
so that everything could function." 
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Richard Ruquist  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-12, 15:17:08 
Subject: Re: Why we debate religion: two completely different types of truth. 


May not be of interest, 
but the Reform branch on Judaism has a prayer for "Doubt" in their 
High Holiday services. 
That may be one reason why some have become such good scientists. 
Richard 


On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bruno Marchal  wrote: 
> 
> On 09 Sep 2012, at 13:50, Roger Clough wrote: 
> 
> 
> Why we debate religion: two completely different and frequently 
> confused types of truth. 
> 
> There are two completely different types of truth. 
> 
> The first is rational or objective or public truth, discussed 
> in philosophies of "truth" and logic. 
> 
> The second is truth known only privately or subjectively 
> This is the kind of truth that police must rely on when a 
> dead body needs identifying. There is an immediate 
> certainty of identity that the surviving relative knows inside, 
> but only he can be sure of that. 
> 
> This is also a part of the show-and-tell aspect of courtroom trials. 
> The jury must decide on the guilt of the defendant v partly 
> logiocally, but to a great extent from the show and tell of evidence. 
> 
> Objective truth is shareable but not determined personally, 
> and may be debsatable by philsophers. 
> 
> Subjective truth is not shareable because it is private and personal. 
> But to many (including me) it is the most certain form of truth, 
> A mother will always be certain that it is or is not her son lying on 
> the table in the morgue. And in another context, one cannot argue 
> on matters of taste. 
> 
> This difference in forms of truth is where all of our religious debates 
> come from. Religious truth is only certain to a an individual 
> and cannot be shared. 
> 
> 
> I mainly agree. But then why coming with factual assertion, about a Jesus 
> guy. I can accept the parabolas, but I can't take a witnessing of 500 
> persons, in the writing of a quite biased guy (Paul), from a reasonable 
> perspective, as an argument, and it all make dubious any assertion you can 
> add. 
> 
> Your theory above is better, though, and close to the universal machine's 
> own theory, actually. 
> 
> Science is only a modest and interrogative inquiry. It is rooted in the 
> doubt, and ask only question. Theories have all interrogation mark. 
> It is the separation between science and theology that makes people 
> believing that science = truth, when the truth is that science = doubt, but 
> with a willingness to make the assumptions as clear as it is needed to be 
> sharable, and questioned. 
> 
> You say "Religious truth is only certain too an individual and cannot be 
> shared", but note that is the case also for consciousness, and all 
> hallucinated states. If you cannot share, don't try, perhaps. 
> 
> As a computer scientist, and logician, I study what ideally correct machine 
> can discover about themselves and that they cannot share, or even express, 
> from different person points of view. Very small machines already provide 
> quite non trivial observations on that. Books exists on the subject (Boolos, 
> Smorynski, Smullyan, ...). 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
> 
> 
> 
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