Hi Richard,

Judaism, but also taoism have a tradition to consider texts has deserving comments, and sequence of comments. That is nice indeed, and make the approach closer to the scientific approach. But I talk about ideal science, as science can have pope and argument per authority too, alas. Esecially when separated from religion, science can take the shape of pseudo-religion, like with assertions of truth, or worst the taking of granted of metaphysical assertion, like the existence of a physical primary universe, which is an hypothesis, 'course.

Bruno

On 12 Sep 2012, at 21:17, Richard Ruquist wrote:

May not be of interest,
but the Reform branch on Judaism has a prayer for "Doubt" in their
High Holiday services.
That may be one reason why some have become such good scientists.
Richard


On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Sep 2012, at 13:50, Roger Clough wrote:


Why we debate religion: two completely different and frequently
confused types of truth.

There are two completely different types of truth.

The first is rational or objective or public truth, discussed
in philosophies of "truth" and logic.

The second is truth known only privately or subjectively
This is the kind of truth that police must rely on when a
dead body needs identifying. There is an immediate
certainty of identity that the surviving relative knows inside,
but only he can be sure of that.

This is also a part of the show-and-tell aspect of courtroom trials.
The jury must decide on the guilt of the defendant v partly
logiocally, but to a great extent from the show and tell of evidence.

Objective truth is shareable but not determined personally,
   and may  be debsatable by philsophers.

Subjective truth is not shareable because it is private and personal.
   But to many (including me) it is the most certain form of truth,
A mother will always be certain that it is or is not her son lying on
   the table in the morgue.  And in another context, one cannot argue
   on matters of taste.

This difference in forms of truth is where all of our religious debates
come from.  Religious truth is only certain to a an individual
and cannot be shared.


I mainly agree. But then why coming with factual assertion, about a Jesus
guy. I can accept the parabolas, but I can't take a witnessing of 500
persons, in the writing of a quite biased guy (Paul), from a reasonable perspective, as an argument, and it all make dubious any assertion you can
add.

Your theory above is better, though, and close to the universal machine's
own theory, actually.

Science is only a modest and interrogative inquiry. It is rooted in the
doubt, and ask only question. Theories have all interrogation mark.
It is the separation between science and theology that makes people
believing that science = truth, when the truth is that science = doubt, but with a willingness to make the assumptions as clear as it is needed to be
sharable, and questioned.

You say "Religious truth is only certain too an individual and cannot be
shared", but note that is the case also for consciousness, and all
hallucinated states. If you cannot share, don't try, perhaps.

As a computer scientist, and logician, I study what ideally correct machine can discover about themselves and that they cannot share, or even express, from different person points of view. Very small machines already provide quite non trivial observations on that. Books exists on the subject (Boolos,
Smorynski, Smullyan, ...).

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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